Revised Threats to the World

[aclu14]

Just a few suggestions.

I wish I could vote more than once....


Saddam by a landslide...but I only wish you socialists could understand that.......

I wish I could add to that list....."Socialists", "People with the ideals and beliefs similar to Phreakmeister's", and probably "Johnny Cochran".....

Maderic.......

[aclu14]

Redundant fool.

[Phreakmeister]

Originally posted by Maderic
"People with the ideals and beliefs similar to Phreakmeister's"

Maderic, when will you grow up? When will you actually start to post something that is a contribution to DL? Do you seriously think you are being considered "adult" and "mature" with this?

[Gusty]

Originally posted by Maderic
I wish I could vote more than once....


Saddam by a landslide...but I only wish you socialists could understand that.......

I wish I could add to that list....."Socialists", "People with the ideals and beliefs similar to Phreakmeister's", and probably "Johnny Cochran".....

Maderic.......

That Mad man is what is called free choice.........:mad

I have friend's who are out in the Gulf ready to fight and die in this war.
Now I'm not again'st it but I do believe that we had the chance to take him out year's ago and did feck all about it.......

[sinecure]

Originally posted by Phreakmeister


Maderic, when will you grow up? When will you actually start to post something that is a contribution to DL? Do you seriously think you are being considered "adult" and "mature" with this?

YEAH!!!....

Now, go cut and paste something [anything] into one of your posts, and you'll look so much smarter.

Oh yeah, --Leave out any attribution so we'll all think it was ideas and language that came from YOU.

THEN you'll be considered "adult" and "mature."

:lol :lol :p :wave

[w1che]

LOL@Sin.. :D .... Yep we do have copy/paste experts on this board... What I find interesting is when the copy/paste is done on about four or five post from the same person with no one else posting in between.. :eek: :D

[Dizbuster]

The greatest threat to the world at this time is Islam.

IF this really is a religion of "peace" then why doesn't the clergy put a stop to the inflammatory and antagonistic rhetoric that is being preached by the mullahs? Why doesn't the leaders of the faith work to bridge the divisions, rather than couching all their denials and refutations in barely concealed recrimminations at the victims of their depredations?

When is the last time you heard of crowds of Christians looting, burning, raping and murdering, all because they took something as an insult to their religion? Beyond the occasional anti-abortion crackpot, how many christian "terrorists" have been responsible for blowing up, burning down, and killing people, all in the name of their religion?
Where DO you find the concept of Jihad, in the christian bible?

We are not talking ancient history here. So what if there were crusades and pogroms hundreds of years ago, the inquisition is old news. We are talking in the modern era. Nothing the christians have done in the past can even compare to the evil that moslems have brought to the world.

It just makes it appear more true that Islam, rather than any other factor, is the greatest threat to world peace.
Maybe it is just that this religion attracts psychopaths, who knows, I can just say that, if you review the last 75 to 100 years of history, Islam is the religion that has inspired the most violence and terrorism around the world. Everywhere it has spread, it has also brought intolerance, violence, and opression.

In most places where the Moslems have become a majority, minority religions or beliefs are attacked and suppressed. Their intolerance to any other creed makes this the most dangerous doctrine in the world today.

(my inflammatory post for the day.
Go ahead, denounce me for being a racist or bigot, when that is the very thing I am denouncing. and next you will be saying that, if I get raped, it really is my fault too, for becoming a woman. :rolleyes: )

[Sjax]

I wasn't going to do this, but since you ask me so nicely:

I think you are wrong. Name me a terror organisation who make attacks because they are moslems.
The palestinian terrorists make attacks because they want their own state. So does IRA in Northern Ireland and ETA in Spain. Both christian.

Al Quada made their attacks because of the american foreign politics and the western capitalism. If it had been an attack on christianity it would have been more logical to attack the Vatican State. RAF, Baader-Meinhof and Timothy McVeigh attacked (more or less) the same things. All christians (of culture, anyway)

You make a very common mistake here Diz. There is no connection between the terrorists religion and their motives to attack, as many people (also here in Euroland) seem to believe.

To say that the inquisition and the crusades cant compare to the horrors of islam is just a lack of historical insight from you. Try to read up on those things. If the crusaders had had nuclear weapons, the world had been a different place today. If it had even existed.

[kontulib]

Islamic fundamentalist are dangerous and big threat, yeah...but so are christian fundamentalists too...

[Phreakmeister]

Originally posted by sinecure


YEAH!!!....

Now, go cut and paste something [anything] into one of your posts, and you'll look so much smarter.

Oh yeah, --Leave out any attribution so we'll all think it was ideas and language that came from YOU.

THEN you'll be considered "adult" and "mature."

:lol :lol :p :wave

Still enjoying your "opinions" about Europe, are you? One question: do you know where on this planet Europe is? Do you know, without having to resort to books, just by heart, which country in Europe is which, which government that country has, even what language those people speak, what the history of that country is like, how those people relate to each other, etc.? Sure, your crap about Europe may look smart to the ignorant reader, but anyone who truly knows what Europe is like can deflate your .... easily. Because it's nothing but fried air, that's what it is.

[sinecure]

Originally posted by Phreakmeister


Still enjoying your "opinions" about Europe, are you? One question: do you know where on this planet Europe is? Do you know, without having to resort to books, just by heart, which country in Europe is which, which government that country has, even what language those people speak, what the history of that country is like, how those people relate to each other, etc.? Sure, your crap about Europe may look smart to the ignorant reader, but anyone who truly knows what Europe is like can deflate your .... easily. Because it's nothing but fried air, that's what it is.

Good Lord!... Do you have any idea of what a "non sequitur" statement [or, in this case, "post"] is?

You just made one.

But I'll take up your line of thought anyway...

I've made no bones about my ignorance of many European facts. Especially when it comes to the smaller countries, I know only bits and pieces about most. But this begs the question:

Just what do I really NEED TO KNOW about Europe?

I've never BEEN there, will never GO there, damn few things I want are MADE there, many of our recent problems are SPAWNED there, and my paycheck isn't SIGNED there. It's likely that I already know all I really NEED to know, anything more is mere curiosity.

No, I'm certainly not saying that I am any sort of an expert on the nations and people of Europe... unlike YOU, dear Phreak... You, who appear to be holding yourself out as an expert on all things American, because you've read a few socialist books and listened to a bunch of socialist lecturers in school. You should have listened much closer... that noise in the background was the sound of an axe being ground. :D

[That was possibly an unfair use of an American idiomatic expression... I'll explain if you want.]

[Dizbuster]

Originally posted by Sjax
I wasn't going to do this, but since you ask me so nicely:

I think you are wrong. Name me a terror organisation who make attacks because they are moslems.
The palestinian terrorists make attacks because they want their own state. So does IRA in Northern Ireland and ETA in Spain. Both christian.

Al Quada made their attacks because of the american foreign politics and the western capitalism. If it had been an attack on christianity it would have been more logical to attack the Vatican State. RAF, Baader-Meinhof and Timothy McVeigh attacked (more or less) the same things. All christians (of culture, anyway)

You make a very common mistake here Diz. There is no connection between the terrorists religion and their motives to attack, as many people (also here in Euroland) seem to believe.

To say that the inquisition and the crusades cant compare to the horrors of islam is just a lack of historical insight from you. Try to read up on those things. If the crusaders had had nuclear weapons, the world had been a different place today. If it had even existed.

I have studied the inquisition some, but gosh, that happened like 400 Years ago. What about something more recent, like did you study what the Taliban, Iranians, or even our "good" friends the Saudis have done to dissenters, minority religions and their own people? If you want to go back into history, what about some of the "nice" things the Ottomans or the Malamukes did? Ask yourself, why is it that you have to dig back a few hundred years to find the "horrors" of Christianity, when for Islam, all you have to do is open today's newspaper?

As far as terrorists, they are the ones procaliming the "holy war" with names like Islamic Jihad, Hezzbolah, and Hamas, gee, where would we ever pick up a connection between the terror and Islam?:rolleyes:
Gee, did you listen to the tapes that Bin Laden and the others have made, or read the transcripts? Islamic doctrine is spread through the entire text. And if the Pals just want a country, why are they so concerned about those "holy sites" they keep squawking about that the jews are profaning? Just the fact that the jews would dare to want a country on their "holy land" is what fuels groups like Islamic Jihad, Hamas, or Hezbollah.

Wheh did the Red Brigades/Bader Meinhoff ever claim to be christians, or make the statement that they were doing god's work? Same question about McVeigh, or about the Basques? Even you should be able to tell the difference between what the statements some communist insurrgent, and a "holy" warrior( a title that Bin Laden and his followers give themselves)may mean, and what something a psychopath like al Ashid says.
When one of the hijackers was screaming Allah Akabar and other religious phrases into the microphone as he crashed the plane into one of the towers, I see a very real connection, as I also have not seen the rest of the Islamic world denounce condemn and reject, the use of terror and the terrorists.

Please, enlighten us on the recent incidents of terrorism, commited by "fundamentalist Christians", in the name of Christ, against whoever.
Where is the body count from all those suicide bombers?
How many ships or buildings have they blown up, or other wise damaged or destroyed, in the name of the Christian God? How many "holy" warriors of Christ have blown up car bombs or burnt down churches.

To me it is personal, and I take offence at a doctrine that would relegate me as chattel, something to be treated no better than a goat or camel. It is bad enough being born the way I was, but then to have Moslems tell me that, since I am a woman inside, I am no better than livestock, offends me greatly. Personally, while I am still able to get away with it, I am going to go around and shake the hands of all the "devout" moslem men I can.
I may even rub a little bacon grease on my hand while I am at it:p :o :D :wink

[aclu14]

Any kind of fundamentalism is wrong and dangerous.

Diz, do you know what the Burning Times are? It was a period from 1000 BC to 1700 AD when 9 million men, women and children (emphasis on females) were killed for "practicing witchcraft." The torture and executions (burning, hanging, drowning, etc) were carried out in the name of Christianity and its forerunners.

Dubya called the "War on Terrorism" a "crusade."

There's another one for the Christian tally - the Crusades. Pope Gregory the something's favorite Bible verse went something like "He who puts down his sword had not completed the Lord's work."

"Jihad" means "struggle."

Bin Laden's so-called tapes came from anonymous sources and were showcased on Al Jazeera. Are they really that credible?

Palestine was there first. Britain and the UN had no right to put Israel there. It's like they WANTED an Israeli-Palestinian conflict to arise.

Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. 'Nuff said.

[w1che]

Right on Diz.. If women were treated in one of the Euro countries the way they are in Arab countries these same people would be whining to high heaven. You see some are missing the point here. They feel superior to the Arabs & inferior to the americans so in that sense the Arabs can do no wrong because they are just poor misguided creatures... You see simple thoughts for simple people...:wave :cool

[BeetleJuice]

Might we ratchet down a little on the tone guys? Please?

[Gusty]

Originally posted by w1che
You see some are missing the point here. They feel superior to the Arabs & inferior to the americans


Get of your high horse.........feel inferior to a race that has no real history......This is my problem with America youse are so big headed and youse can't see what is happening in the rest of the world.It's about time America woke up and took a good look at her-self.Maybe this wanting to free the people of the world has somthing to do with your guilt of treating the Indian's like dirt (not to mention stealing their land)and the way that the Black American has been treated ever since he first set foot on your lovely free soil.........Land of the Free.....don't make me laugh
:mad

[Sjax]

Inferior to the americans:D :lol :D

Diz: I was gonna write you a long post, but I think aclu's says most of what should be said.

It is very important to remember that it is not the religion but the fundamentalism that is wrong.
Fundamentalistic christians would condemn you too, Diz, because they wouldn't believe you when you said that you where born as the wrong sex. On the other hand I know moslems who would support what you do.
The terrorists of the 11th september were moslems, but they didnt attack because they were moslems, do you understand?
Just like the ETA are christians and probably says prayers before they make attacks as well.

Even you should be able to tell the difference between what the statements some communist insurrgent, and a "holy" warrior( a title that Bin Laden and his followers give themselves)may mean, and what something a psychopath like al Ashid says. Even I?!? Even stupid, little, ignorant, european Sjax, or what do you mean. I didnt say that Bader-Meinhof was christian, I said Christian by culture, meaning they were born and raised in a christian society.

[Phreakmeister]

Originally posted by sinecure
I've made no bones about my ignorance of many European facts. Especially when it comes to the smaller countries, I know only bits and pieces about most. But this begs the question:

Just what do I really NEED TO KNOW about Europe?

I've never BEEN there, will never GO there, damn few things I want are MADE there, many of our recent problems are SPAWNED there, and my paycheck isn't SIGNED there. It's likely that I already know all I really NEED to know, anything more is mere curiosity.

And still you claim to know that America is so much superior to Europe. What do you base that fact on, if you know little more than the basics of even the existence of Europe?

No, I'm certainly not saying that I am any sort of an expert on the nations and people of Europe... unlike YOU, dear Phreak... You, who appear to be holding yourself out as an expert on all things American, because you've read a few socialist books and listened to a bunch of socialist lecturers in school.

You do know that McCarthyism ended 50 years ago, don't you? There's no need anymore to call anything non-American "socialist". That time has ended. Sometimes people can actually disagree with American politics/policies, and still not be socialistic or anti-American. There's a nice statement for that: "I don't have to like politicians to love America." Apparently my dislike of the American politics/policies/politicians makes me a socialist. Just that.
As I said before, I do not claim to know the universal truth (if such a thing exists). But I do know a lot more about America than you know about Europe.

And no, I have not read "a few socialist books" and a few "socialist lecturers". Those books I've read, are AMERICAN books. The lectures at my university (not school) were by Americans or by people affiliated with the United States. Socialism has nothing to do with this. When will you learn to keep that out of any discussion whatsoever? I know it's hard for you, but please, do try.

[w1che]

Socialist always hate to be called socialist.. Just like in this country Liberals always hate to be called liberals.

Phreak.. One can read more that one of your post & get a good idea of where you lean on the political spectrum... Your secret is out...:clap

[kontulib]

Originally posted by w1che
Socialist always hate to be called socialist..

Not all...I don´t hate it.

[w1che]

Quote from Kon... Not all...I don´t hate it.
>>>>>
Yeah I guess your right. I guess I should clarify my statement.. "Smart Socialist always hate to be called Socialist" I guess that leaves you & Preak out.... :D :wave

[kontulib]

Originally posted by w1che
Quote from Kon... Not all...I don´t hate it.
>>>>>
Yeah I guess your right. I guess I should clarify my statement.. "Smart Socialist always hate to be called Socialist" I guess that leaves you & Preak out.... :D :wave

What the hell that thing have doing with somebodys intelligence?

[sinecure]

Originally posted by Phreakmeister


And still you claim to know that America is so much superior to Europe. What do you base that fact on, if you know little more than the basics of even the existence of Europe?

Well, Phreak... I don't need to know how a microwave relay station works in order for me to make a phone call, neither do I need to know how the movement in my wristwatch works to tell what time it is. Likewise, I don't need to know all that much about Europe to know that America is and, since the Industrial Revolution, has been clearly superior to most EU nations.


You do know that McCarthyism ended 50 years ago, don't you? There's no need anymore to call anything non-American "socialist". That time has ended.

OK, so you did learn something in school...:rolleyes:

Perhaps you were absent the day the class was taught that, while McCarthy is gone, socialism and communism are still around.


Sometimes people can actually disagree with American politics/policies, and still not be socialistic or anti-American. There's a nice statement for that: "I don't have to like politicians to love America." Apparently my dislike of the American politics/policies/politicians makes me a socialist. Just that.

"If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck...call it a duck."

Are you saying that you are NOT a socialist? From your postings here, you seem to want no personal accountability, cradle-to-grave healthcare, guaranteed income, etc.. ..all the socialist trappings.

It is a short step from being pro-socialism/communism to being anti-American. When I sense that you've made that step, I hold up a mirror.

As I said before, I do not claim to know the universal truth (if such a thing exists). But I do know a lot more about America than you know about Europe.

Not much of an arguement there, Phreak... but what I'm pointing out to you** is that some of the key stuff you think you "know" about America is wrong.

[**"When a finger points to the moon, the idiot looks at the finger..." Ohata, 13th Century Japanese philosopher.] :D

Those books I've read, are AMERICAN books. The lectures at my university (not school) were by Americans or by people affiliated with the United States.

Yeah, well.. you see, we have a lot of misguided citizens over here who advocate socialism and communism. Many of them are soft-handed "Ivory-Tower Academics" who have no idea what their precious "Worker's Paradise" actually entails, having never done a day's actual work in their lives, but they are free to write books, and even travel abroad as "guest lecturers." :p


Socialism has nothing to do with this. When will you learn to keep that out of any discussion whatsoever? I know it's hard for you, but please, do try.

Well, your anti-American attitude seems to be based in your pro-socialism/communism beliefs. Like weeding the garden-- in order to do any real good, you must get to the root.

[FTale]

Western culture is christian culture, right. Even if one doesn't believe in God one is still raised in christian culture. Western countries rule this world, that is true. So, if we, the western countries do something (the Israelis killing Palestinians, NATO bombing Balkan, USA bombing Afghanistan (and soon Iraq)), it's "right" and "legal", because we rule the world so we call the shots.

Some people use the religion for their own needs. They brainwash fools who then think they do their god's work by killing christians. And jihad (struggle) means the inner struggle against one's own bad habits, not against other religions.

[kontulib]

Originally posted by sinecure

Are you saying that you are NOT a socialist? From your postings here, you seem to want no personal accountability, cradle-to-grave healthcare, guaranteed income, etc.. ..all the socialist trappings.


Here in Europe and here in Finland name of that is socialdemocratism. And healthcare, guaranteed income etc. are things what we "socialistic" Euros think at it is SOCIETYS DUTY to keep those things working.

[w1che]

Quote from Kon.... What the hell that thing have doing with somebodys intelligence?
>>>>>
You did see the little green face didn't you? Well when you see that on one of my post I'm kidding..

Now having said that... I never said you wasn't intelligent but one can be intelligent with out being smart.. If you used your common sense you wouldn't be a Socialist because it does not work in the real world.. Russia & China being examples of failed systems...

[aclu14]

There's probably more people who lean towards socialism in the US than in the whole country of the Netherlands.

[Phreakmeister]

One great reason, W1, is that China isn't, and the Soviet-Union wasn't socialistic. Socialism is not about political oppression. Socialism is about a more equal and just spread of income, knowledge and power. Marxism/socialism/communism/social-democracy are all socio-economic theories. Science has proven Karl Marx right.

Yes, I do support support for the unemployed. Do you think that those Enron-employees should rot away because of the greed of the board? Do you think people like that don't deserve the support of society? Sure, "they should get another job", but that's easier said than done in the recession we are in now.
And yes, I do support cradle-to-grave healthcare. Why? Because health care should be about curing the ill, not about curing the rich. When a patient comes into a hospital, doctors should not look at the wallet of the patient, but at what the patient is suffering from. When you give health care away to the market (i.e. profit, which is what business is all about), you create the situation, where doctors prefer a lucrative breast enlargement over tumor radiation.

If you want to know the truth about Marxism/communism/socialism, I suggest you don't look at what it has been corrupted into, but at what it ought to have been. I can only suggest you read "Das Kapital" by Karl Marx, a lucid analysis of the interplay between social structures and economic conditions, and their role in political developments.
A clear analysis of Marxism has been given in John Tosh's The Pursuit of History or Adam Barnhart's Postmodern Theory and Karl Marx (http://www.cfmc.com/adamb/writings/marxpost.htm)

[sinecure]

Originally posted by aclu14
There's probably more people who lean towards socialism in the US than in the whole country of the Netherlands.

Could you expand on some of these rather broad-sweeping and conclusionary statements of yours?

In othe words-- What, exactly, are you talking about when you use the term "socialism", and where do you get your information to come up with these statements?

[Phreakmeister]

Originally posted by aclu14
There's probably more people who lean towards socialism in the US than in the whole country of the Netherlands.

That's not too difficult. We only have 16 million people.

[Sjax]

Originally posted by sinecure
Well, Phreak... I don't need to know how a microwave relay station works in order for me to make a phone call, neither do I need to know how the movement in my wristwatch works to tell what time it is. Likewise, I don't need to know all that much about Europe to know that America is and, since the Industrial Revolution, has been clearly superior to most EU nations.

1: The industrial revolution: 16- 1700 century - EU 1952 (correct me if I am wrong)
2: Your phone and wristwatch examples are just pathetic. You are right about the fact, that you dont need to know anything about Europe to say USA is great, but in order to compare them, which you do when you write that one is superior to the other, you need at least a superficial knowledge.

Please tell me in which ways USA is superior to Europe.

[aclu14]

Originally posted by sinecure


In othe words-- What, exactly, are you talking about when you use the term "socialism"?


Right back at you and all the other people who insult socialists.

[sinecure]

Originally posted by Sjax


1: The industrial revolution: 16- 1700 century - EU 1952 (correct me if I am wrong)

You are correct. I was using "EU" as shorthand so I wouldn't have to list all the nations that contributed to the Industrial Revo. If you think that was a "gotcha", well OK.

2: Your phone and wristwatch examples are just pathetic.

Really? Well let me spell it out in even simpler terms.:rolleyes: You see, I don't need to know much detail to OBSERVE a measureable superiority. GNP, lifestyle, production of consumer goods, balance of trade, all forms of scientific advances, just name it-- America is at or very near the top. Yes, including CONSUMPTION of consumer goods and resources.

America is blessed with considerable natural resources, that's true. What America really excels in is creation of wealth. The rest of the world knows this, which is why all world stock markets are firmly tied to ours.

You are right about the fact, that you dont need to know anything about Europe to say USA is great, but in order to compare them, which you do when you write that one is superior to the other, you need at least a superficial knowledge.

Please tell me in which ways USA is superior to Europe.

See the list above.

[aclu14]

Originally posted by sinecure


What America really excels in is creation of wealth.




Yeah, creation of wealth for the top .0001% and everyone else's money gets flushed down the DoD toilet. The national debt is more than $14 trillion.

[w1che]

6,327,463,487,181.06 <<<< U S national debt as of 11/20/2002...Hmmmmm doesn't look like 14 trillion to me.. Also over 3 trillion of that is held by Americans. So you see we owe ourselves around half the debt..

[kontulib]

Originally posted by w1che

Russia & China being examples of failed systems...

What the hell Russia & China have doing with socialism?

Yep, I saw that :D face. But I though smilie like this :wink means at somebody is kidding.

[Serendipity]

Originally posted by w1che
6,327,463,487,181.06 <<<< U S national as of 11/20/2002...Hmmmmm doesn't look like 14 trillion to me.. Also over 3 trillion of that is held by Americans. So you see we owe ourselves around half the debt.. I like things to be nice and neat, so could some kind member of this board please pay off that 6 cents? :lol :p

[w1che]

LOL@Sir-Dip...:D

Kon you use the face you want to use & I will use the face I want to use. I'm just trying to be nice here but that can change..

Are you trying to say Russia & China's system were not based on socialism? Get a grip or tell me one country that has a pure socialist system without a dictator.

[Dizbuster]

Considering, I specifically mentioned the Last 75 to 100 years, and the present times, ACLU's whole "argument" is just a rehash of past diatribes against Christians, which in the present day is much LESS of the threat to anyone than Islam is. Please, if you have specific MODERN examples from the newspapers of people burning, blowing up, or killing people in the name of Christ, and the christian churches NOT reacting with disgust and revulsion at the acts, please enlighten us.

Originally posted by aclu14
Any kind of fundamentalism is wrong and dangerous.

True, this is something I have said before and agree, however, when the "moderates" of a religion give their tacit approval by not acting against their co-religionists, then I do not see any difference between the fundamentalists and the rest of them.

To use a less deadly, but just as horrific example, when the stories of the catholic priests pedophilia, and the churches inaction towards the offenders was reported, the church, didn't come out and say;
" oh that is a sad and tragic thing, but the boys had it coming, due to their dressing up as altar boys"

Most catholics, and priests reacted the way the should, with horror, revulsion, and dennunciation. The christian churches also reacted with horror and disgust.

Originally posted by aclu14

Diz, do you know what the Burning Times are? It was a period from 1000 BC to 1700 AD when 9 million men, women and children (emphasis on females) were killed for "practicing witchcraft." The torture and executions (burning, hanging, drowning, etc) were carried out in the name of Christianity and its forerunners.

Dubya called the "War on Terrorism" a "crusade."

There's another one for the Christian tally - the Crusades. Pope Gregory the something's favorite Bible verse went something like "He who puts down his sword had not completed the Lord's work."

"Jihad" means "struggle."

Bin Laden's so-called tapes came from anonymous sources and were showcased on Al Jazeera. Are they really that credible?

So, and they still burn and kill witches in Africa and Asia, your first example here is utterly irrelevant. It is not a matter of religion, but a matter of basic human stupidity and ignorance. Guess what, people have always reacted negatively, and sometimes violently, to things that they do not understand or that are different. At the very least, christianity has helped people deal with their own ignorance and control their impulses to destroy and hurt others not like them. Once the Church stopped being used as a pawn in politics, and the true message of christ was learned, look at what has happened in the world, at least in the West?

Your point about the Crusades is, what? Irrelevant and ridiculous, is the only thing I can see. Why don't you include the definition of "crusade" along with "jihad", or would that not suit your purpose here?

Let's see, the last "crusade" to take back the holy land from the heathens was in the 1400's, and of course failed miserably, they didn't even make it to the holy land, and they ended up attacking the heretical Byzantines, weakinging them enough so the Turks could finally put an end to the eastern Roman Empire in 1453.
This is relevant to the present times how?

So, we are to believe all the video tapes of President Bush saying stupid things, no matter what the source, but when we have video of bin Laden and his cohorts preaching "Jihad" and issuing Fatwahs against the west, all in the name of Allah, that doesn't mean a thing? You and others are ready to give credence to Al Jazreera, when they report on "massacres" by the Israelis, or claims that the US is commiting genocide in Afghanistan, but when it comes to Al-quaeda, and tapes that were not only sent to them but to other Arab new sources in London and other places in the world, they are not all that credible any more?
I am not talking about the audio tape recently released, but a bout the video tapes released in the past year, as well as the interviews he gave to US and other journalists over the past years before 9/11. I am talking about the transcripts of sermons given by the mullahs in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and other places, where they are telling their followers that Allah wants them to make war on the infidel and kill and destroy them, even to become martyrs by blowing themselves up and taking as many of the enemy with them as they can. I am talking about the Indonesian jihadists, who blow up buses, and attack churches in Java, East Timor and all across southeast Asia, seeking to drive out or kill all those who will not convert to Islam. I am also talking about Pakistan, where the life expectancy of a christian, be they westerner or Pakistani, is much lower than that of a moslem, and going to church is as dangerous as running through a minefield.


Originally posted by aclu14

Palestine was there first. Britain and the UN had no right to put Israel there. It's like they WANTED an Israeli-Palestinian conflict to arise.

Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. 'Nuff said.

Chicken and egg, which came first?
Who gives a damn, what is done has been done, the British did nothing different than what the victors of a war have done for ages. Read the history of the area, guess what, the modern Palestinians are just as much refugees as the Jews. Like the jews, their anscestors were forcibly relocated to the area by the Ottomans and others. The only "true" natives are the Bedouin tribes that have been pushed down to the south. So many different peoples have been through the land, conquering and pushing out the other inhabitants, that there is no such thing as a "native". You think Arafat is a "native"? Sorry, he was born in Egypt, just like most of the rest of the Palestinian leadership who were born elsewhere.

So, answer me then, how many suicide bombers or terrorists have been "inspired" by Falwall or Robertson, to go out and commit acts of violence and murder, in the name of god?

Open the papers, search the internet, and learn young one, because YOU are not immune or safe either from their hatred. You have 2 strikes against you already, you are female, and thus just livestock, and you are a pagan, something which they will give you one chance to convert, and if not, then if you are pretty and have blond hair, you will end up in someone's harem, or if not become a third or fourth wife to some goat farmer, or they will kill you. There is NO middle ground here. The sooner the western world sees this, the fewer people will have to die to stop them.

Stop letting your hatred cloud your judgement and emotions. Only by letting it go will you ever grow.

Some of you, until the time the religious police come knocking on your door to "ask" you to convert to Islam, you will not change your minds, since they are just the poor "swarthy" people that you feel some sort of guilt laden obligation to side with, against the "evils" of your own societies "corrupt" past.

Just wait, for it is coming. They are out breeding you over there in Europe, and they are biding their time. When they become the majority in your country, and use your own institutions to " vote" in their theocratic Imans, and you are forced to either convert, or face second class status, then what will you do? When the gangs of 'religious students" start beating and killing and looting your stores and raping your women, and the police sit idly by, not lifting a hand, since you are "only" an "unbeliever", remember your high ideals, and how your "fairness" and "non-judgemental" morals, have brought you to this place.
You want to see your future, look no further into the past than the taliban and their rule in Afghanistan, or look to The Islamic Republic of Iran. That is what awaits you.

[Dizbuster]

Originally posted by Sjax
Inferior to the americans:D :lol :D

Diz: I was gonna write you a long post, but I think aclu's says most of what should be said.

It is very important to remember that it is not the religion but the fundamentalism that is wrong.
Fundamentalistic christians would condemn you too, Diz, because they wouldn't believe you when you said that you where born as the wrong sex. On the other hand I know moslems who would support what you do.
The terrorists of the 11th september were moslems, but they didnt attack because they were moslems, do you understand?
Just like the ETA are christians and probably says prayers before they make attacks as well.

Even I?!? Even stupid, little, ignorant, european Sjax, or what do you mean. I didnt say that Bader-Meinhof was christian, I said Christian by culture, meaning they were born and raised in a christian society.

If you think I meant that as an insult, then fine, that is your choice. As far as ACLU's post, well it was pretty much irrelevant, too bad you just couldn't see that.

As for the rest, when the mullahs and Imans are issuing Fatwahs, and calling for people to become martyrs, and the rest of the clergy sit idly by, or release a statement that ends by "blaming the victim" then, that makes me rather suspicious of what degree of seperation there is between the moderates and the Fundamentalists.
Maybe it is that, the moderates will give you a chance to convert first, rather than just killing you out of hand?
:rolleyes:
I guess I just can't match your peerless "openmindedness" on the evils of the West, and the glories of the non western societies. I mean since all I care about is spotting, and reducing or eliminating the risks to my family and friends, I am just not "broad minded" enough to honestly engage you. Things that I see as self evident just seem to go right past you, lost in your "broad" perspective.
You know the part about " Those who do not learn from the past, are doomed to repeat it."?
Well the corellary is, "learn from the present as well. Too much attention to the past, means you do not learn enough from the present in order to avoid reliving it.

[kontulib]

Originally posted by w1che
LOL@Sir-Dip...:D

Kon you use the face you want to use & I will use the face I want to use. I'm just trying to be nice here but that can change..

Are trying to say Russia & China's system were not based on socialism? Get a grip or tell me one country that has a pure socialist system without a dictator.

Sorry if I have hurt your feelings or something....I think I have been nice here, so there is no reason why you can´t be nice too.

No, Soviet Union and China was not socialism. They was (and China still is) only dictatorship.

[kontulib]

Originally posted by w1che

Are trying to say Russia & China's system were not based on socialism? Get a grip or tell me one country that has a pure socialist system without a dictator.

Sjax or Phreak can explain that. They have better english skill what I have...:wink

[kontulib]

Originally posted by w1che

Get a grip or tell me one country that has a pure socialist system without a dictator.

Ok, not pure but here is mixed system. About half socialism and half capitalism...and how most of us Finns are thinking: "Capitalism is good hired hand, but bad farmer"

[sinecure]

Originally posted by aclu14



Yeah, creation of wealth for the top .0001% and everyone else's money gets flushed down the DoD toilet. The national debt is more than $14 trillion.


So....why is the dollar still one of standard currency of the world? America isn't bankrupt, and there are massive MASSIVE foreign holdings of dollars. Like I said-- because we can create wealth.

I appears the concept is simply too far beyond your understanding.

That "DoD toilet" comment shows your lack of a grasp of even simple economics. Do you [i]really think that DoD [Department of Defense] money is just tossed away? Do you know anybody who works in aerospace or in the Defense sector? Lots of good-paying jobs there, you know. Without the DoD contracts, no jobs.

I audited an MBA class a couple of years ago and a really wealthy guy made a good point. He scoffed at Ted Turner's 1 billion dollar donation to charity. [even though it did produce some tax advantages for ol' Ted.:D] Why did he scoff? Because GIVING people something that they could EARN never works out well in the long run. What percentage of that 1 billion was taken up in administration costs? Easily, something well over 20%. What did it actually create? Nothing... when the $1billion is gone, it's gone, with nothing to replace it. The guy had a good point...take that $1 billion and invest it in businesses. Use it as capital to start businesses that provide jobs and generate MORE income. It's the American way.:p :wink

[sinecure]

Originally posted by aclu14
Any kind of fundamentalism is wrong and dangerous.

While I'll agree to the "dangerous" part, I'll have to ask why it's "wrong." Afterall, aclu14 ...YOU are a "fundamental" liberal, are you not? Does this make you "wrong" somehow?

Palestine was there first. Britain and the UN had no right to put Israel there. It's like they WANTED an Israeli-Palestinian conflict to arise.



An ignorant comment, perhaps best answered with this:

The Prime Minister of Israel sits down with Arafat to begin negotiations regarding the resolution of their conflict. The Prime Minister requests that he be allowed to begin with a little story.

Arafat replies......, "But of course, please begin."

The Prime Minister begins his story:

"Long before the Israelites came to the Promised Land and settled here, Moses led them for 40 years through the desert. The Israelites began complaining that they were thirsty and, lo and behold, a miracle occurred and a stream appeared before them. They drank their fill and then decided to take advantage of the stream to do some bathing- Moses included. When Moses came out of the water, he found all his clothing missing.

"Who took my clothes?" asked Moses.

"It was the Palestinians," replied the Israelites-"

"Wait a minute!" objected Arafat immediately, "You can't fool ME!! There were no Palestinians during the time of Moses!"

"Right !" replies the Prime Minister.., "Now that we've got that settled, let's begin our negotiations!"

:D :D :wave

[aclu14]

By saying that, Sinecure, it is the exact same thing as saying that there should be no America, Canada, Mexico, etc and that the Native Americans should take back all the land in North and South America.

[Dizbuster]

that Bin Laden sent :
(doesn't sound religious to me, :rolleyes: )

text: bin Laden's 'letter to America'

Online document: the full text of Osama bin Laden's "letter to the American people", reported in today's Observer. The letter first appeared on the internet in Arabic and has since been translated and circulated by Islamists in Britain.

Observer Worldview

Sunday November 24, 2002

In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful,
"Permission to fight (against disbelievers) is given to those (believers) who are fought against, because they have been wronged and surely, Allah is Able to give them (believers) victory" [Quran 22:39]

"Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghut (anything worshipped other than Allah e.g. Satan). So fight you against the friends of Satan; ever feeble is indeed the plot of Satan."[Quran 4:76]

Some American writers have published articles under the title 'On what basis are we fighting?' These articles have generated a number of responses, some of which adhered to the truth and were based on Islamic Law, and others which have not. Here we wanted to outline the truth - as an explanation and warning - hoping for Allah's reward, seeking success and support from Him.

While seeking Allah's help, we form our reply based on two questions directed at the Americans:

(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?
Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.

(ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history. The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.

When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islaam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) - and we make no distinction between them.

(iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon.

(c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

(i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.

(ii) These governments give us a taste of humiliation, and places us in a large prison of fear and subdual.

(iii) These governments steal our Ummah's wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.

(iv) These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.

(v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

(f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

(2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!

(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.

(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

(f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs.

The American Government and press still refuses to answer the question:

Why did they attack us in New York and Washington?

If Sharon is a man of peace in the eyes of Bush, then we are also men of peace!!! America does not understand the language of manners and principles, so we are addressing it using the language it understands.
{snip}
You can go find and read the rest online if you wish to.
Gosh, sure sounds religious in nature to me!

[sinecure]

Originally posted by aclu14
By saying that, Sinecure, it is the exact same thing as saying that there should be no America, Canada, Mexico, etc and that the Native Americans should take back all the land in North and South America.

Nope, it ain't the same at all.

YOU'RE the one who said [for whatever reason] that "Palestine was there first."

I just showed you your error. :p

:lol


"WAR IS PEACE, FREEDOM IS SLAVERY, IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH."


Orwell hit it dead-bang center.

[Idnew]

Do ya'll just love to butt heads with each other around here on everything? Must be something you can agree on. Hmmmmm:rolleyes:

[w1che]

Quote from Idnew.... Do ya'll just love to butt heads with each other around here on everything? Must be something you can agree on.
>>>>>

Nope, some of these Euro's are just so messed up in their thinking that agreeing with them is not a option..:cool

[Sjax]

What a nice thing to say, w1che:)
Well maybe we can agree that we dont agree?

[kontulib]

Originally posted by Idnew
Do ya'll just love to butt heads with each other around here on everything? Must be something you can agree on. Hmmmmm:rolleyes:

I don´t think it is possible, Idnew. We are so different culture, politics, living conditions, opinions etc. at I think it isn´t possible. Maybe some things we can agree.
But so long when THINGS are arguing, not PEOPLES, it is ok, isn´t it? Discussion, arguing, changing opinions OK so long as we respect each other and don´t start insulting.

[BeetleJuice]

Y'all do know the moon is made of Blue Cheese right? Right?

[Idnew]

Yeah as long as you don't start flamming each other with such name calling such as..... you narrow minded bigoted so and so I'm fine with it.

No it isn't BJ it's made out of swiss....you know with all the holes in it.....this is swiss cheese isn't it? Heck I don't know. :lol

[w1che]

Your so narrow minded & bigoted it's a wonder you breath air...

How is that Idnew..... :D :p :wave

[Idnew]

:p Are you sure it's air wunchee?

[sinecure]

Originally posted by Idnew
Do ya'll just love to butt heads with each other around here on everything? Must be something you can agree on. Hmmmmm:rolleyes:

I just finished BBQ'ing several racks of pork ribs on the outside grill. Mopped with my special BBQ sauce and served with baked beans, garlic toast, a coleslaw salad, and plenty of beer. Peach cobbler for dissert. It was a wonderful meal! :p

I'd suggest that we could all come over to my place and have some more ribs, but I'd be willing to bet that there are people here who are vegans, anti-pork, anti-beer, anti-BBQ... whatever, and we's just get into a big arguement.

Oh well, those ribs and beans taste really good when they are re-heated, too. And the beer doesn't spoil. :lol

[Serendipity]

I have a healthy appetite for all those good things, Sin. :) Send me directions! :lol The other day I cooked for seven people. Avocado starters, then culleen skink (a Scottish fish soup, v. creamy and good enough for a main course - mmmmm:) ) with a French onion soup for the two vegetarians, then apple crumble 'n' ice cream for dessert. Yum! Y'know, we must swap recipes... :) :lol :)

[BeetleJuice]

Hey..... lemme in on those too now!!!!

[aclu14]

Originally posted by sinecure


Nope, it ain't the same at all.





Why?

[FTale]

Some of you are judging all the moslems because a very small part of them is doing terrorist acts. Then you say that everyone is in fault because they don't do anything to stop it.

What are WE doing to stop the horrible things that people from our "side" and culture are doing? Nothing, but hey, we're the one's who are right...

It's SO stupid about arguing who is right, us or them! Everyone should understand that everyone has the right for freedom, home and safety. Those things will never come true to certain people, because there are people who really don't want peace. The palestinian terrorist organisations and hardline-israelians, for example. They don't want peace, they want victory... That's why the killing goes on.

Us euro's are the one's who kinda started it all. Our dreams about expanding our culture and kindom out side our continent, pushing aside old traditions and cultures. That's when it started and it's going on even now. You americans came from Europe and your culture is alike. We have a very rough time to accept different people and cultures.

The moslems fight back, just like the guerrillas in middle-America or Asia. I don't approve killing in the name of anything but I can understand them. Many people here say that they wanna make sure they and their families are safe. That's what "they" are also doing, fighting back against the oppression of western culture. Then we are fighting back and it continues...

Nobody owns this planet. Nobody owns the resources. They belong to everybody, like the native Americans said. We all know waht happened to them. Sometimes it feels this is all a long praise about human stupidity. I can't wait for the grande finale.

[kontulib]

Originally posted by Idnew
Yeah as long as you don't start flamming each other with such name calling such as..... you narrow minded bigoted so and so I'm fine with it.



Are you talking to me? When I have said something like that? :o :confused:

[kontulib]

Originally posted by sinecure


I just finished BBQ'ing several racks of pork ribs on the outside grill. Mopped with my special BBQ sauce and served with baked beans, garlic toast, a coleslaw salad, and plenty of beer. Peach cobbler for dissert. It was a wonderful meal! :p

I'd suggest that we could all come over to my place and have some more ribs, but I'd be willing to bet that there are people here who are vegans, anti-pork, anti-beer, anti-BBQ... whatever, and we's just get into a big arguement.

Oh well, those ribs and beans taste really good when they are re-heated, too. And the beer doesn't spoil. :lol

That thing I agree strongly! :) I can come to visit your place because I´m not anti-pork, anti-beer or anti-BBQ (hell, I can´t live without meat and beer). :clap

[DEAD ZONE]

Originally posted by aclu14
Redundant fool.
http://209.51.153.26/~smilies/s/contrib/blackeye/lol.gif

http://jeeptalk.org/crack/smilies/otn/realhappy/xxrotflmao.gif

You call that iraq thing an election and deried the Bush election?

[DEAD ZONE]

The Miss World riots in the Guardian.
Money graf:

"Besides snobbery, there is a worse reason for being more outraged by western vulgarity than non-western murderousness. It might be called moral obtuseness, or even moral racism. The assumption appears to be that Africans or Asians can't be held to our own elevated standards. They are more like wild animals, whose savagery should not be provoked by our foolishness. When we do provoke them, the consequences are entirely our fault. It would be as misplaced to apply our moral standards to their behaviour, as it would be to expect tigers to talk. The murder of Nigerians or Indian Muslims, or Iraqi Kurds, is par for the course, unless we did it, or Americans, or Israelis."


I think this describes a lot of white, Western, lefty sentiment toward Islamism. Many of these people actually believe that Western standards of freedom, decency, and tolerance cannot be expected of Muslims or other dark-skinned people. The way in which much of the Western Left (and parts of the insouciant right) simply excused the mass murder of hundreds in Nigeria is a function of this condescension. So, I think, is the idea that Iraqis don't really want to live in freedom - or at least out of the grip of a disgusting dictatorship. What parts of the left are about is maintaining their own so-called morality, while consigning the inhabitants of the developing world to the backwardness that is naturally theirs'. If this were the nineteenth century, these lefties would be Tories. And eagles would be Gladstonian liberals."

[Phreakmeister]

If people change the system all of a sudden, it hardly ever comes to good right away. We've seen that in Eastern Europe. People had to think and act for themselves, but were not used to this. This, in combination with corruption, is what has caused the economic and social decline of these countries. In the Soviet-Union, the transition from Brezjnev to Gorbachev to Jeltsin didn't do the economy any good either. Far better, transitionally speaking, would it have been for the Soviet-Union to go from Brezjnev thru Jeltsin to Gorbachev.

It is racistic to think that people in lesser civilized countries can't come to our level of civilization, but it is equally downgrading to think that we have all the wisdom. Assimilation should be prevented at all costs. And trying to explain a certain act does not mean agreeing with or condoning it.
If you teach someone to hate for his entire life, you can expect that person to hate. Even though you don't agree with that hate.