how to treat animals

[ogb]

In German law, § 90a BGB says that "Animals are no things. They are protected by special laws. As long as nothing else is determined they are treated like things". The most curious aspect about it is that killing someones pet means damage to property. What do you think about this law and how is it ruled in other parts of the world?

[paulgro]

It's the same in the U.S. pet's are property.

------------------
"I have not failed. I've just found
10,000 ways that won't work."

Ferrets Place (http://www.alferret.co.uk/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi)

[Ada_Doom]

Hmm....dunno what the legal position is, but the English get far more upset about ill-treatment of animals than ill-treatment of people, ergo we all got terribly upset about the treatment of veal calves, seaside donkeys, retired racehorses and greyhounds dogs in puppy farms etc, and merely demand why the social services didn't do anything when we hear about child abuse cases. What a great nation. No really. http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

------------------
An organisation is like a tree full of monkeys, all on different branches at different levels, some climbing up, some falling down. The monkeys on top look down and see a tree full of smiling faces.The monkeys on the bottom look up and see nothing but !%!%!%!%!%!%!%!%s.

The man is a God (http://www.jpwsfc.org)

[ogb]

@Ada: Somewhere (and it was no yellow press, but a professor or a teacher) I have heard that in England "wild animals" in legal terms are those which don't naturally live in England.
@paulgro: I really wonder as I consider this rule to be reasonable, especially as some pet owners treat them better than human beings. I thought accidently killing an old lady's parrot would cost some million in the US http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/wink.gif

[paulgro]

With the right lawyer that's possible...

------------------
"I have not failed. I've just found
10,000 ways that won't work."

Ferrets Place (http://www.alferret.co.uk/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi)

[Ada_Doom]

Quite possibly ogb. You'll have to ask Scotslaw that one. I don't know enough about it.

------------------
An organisation is like a tree full of monkeys, all on different branches at different levels, some climbing up, some falling down. The monkeys on top look down and see a tree full of smiling faces.The monkeys on the bottom look up and see nothing but !%!%!%!%!%!%!%!%s.

The man is a God (http://www.jpwsfc.org)

[BeetleJuice]

way i see it .... i belong to my "kids" and they own the house they just let me and Miz live here. and go to the store for them. and feed them. and pet them. http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif
actually tho they are a part of my family and i don't view them as property. amybe thats strange but thats the way it is in my house

------------------
Go ahead and say my name three times...... I dare ya


http://www.angelfire.com/my/chihuahuas

[~wildangel~]

Around here they seem to have more animal hospitals then childrens hospitals. Infact I cant think of one child hospital.
Theres only 1 trauma center around here , and the hospital thats always packed but theres about 10 veternarian emergency hospitals.
I think we need more doctors...

------------------
"Don't fear the dog, the shotgun or the man of the house....fear the pregnant wife!!"

Click here for adorable faces!" (http://fairmayden1.homestead.com/babyface.html)

[Scotslaw]

In Scotland (and I'm assuming the rest of the UK is the same) the definition of wild animals was a common law issue. The courts decided if an animal was ferae naturae or domitae naturae.

Now the definition of wild animal appears to be any defined as such by the Dangerous Wild Animals Act 1976. This includes such animals as wolves, jackals, foxes & dogs (excluding domestic dogs), old world monkeys (new world monkeys aren't wild?), alligators, cobras, lions, tigers, bears (oh my!), gilla monsters, orangutangs, emus, vipers & rattlesnakes, grizzly (but not polar - don't know why) bears, etc.

Hope that's some help.

[Ada_Doom]

Whether to class animals as "people" or things is a bit of a grey area, and probably depends if (like Beetle http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif ) you are and animal lover. Though the citizens of Hartlepool, UK who hanged a monkey in 17something cos they thought it was a French spy were probably going a bit far.....

------------------
A tractor driver will never know the small pleasure of overtaking another vehicle, just the huge happiness of stopping others from overtaking him.

The man is a God (http://www.jpwsfc.org)

[ogb]

Maybe there was some similarity? Anyhow, obviously they succeded or do you think the monkey told further secrets to France?

[Ada_Doom]

No. I think it was stopped in it's nasty traitorous (or treacherous? I never know) tracks and was unable to give away the secrets of Hartlepool ever again..... http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/wink.gif

------------------
A tractor driver will never know the small pleasure of overtaking another vehicle, just the huge happiness of stopping others from overtaking him.

The man is a God (http://www.jpwsfc.org)

Here in Iowa they are starting to crack down on people that habitually abuse animals primarily because they feel these people will be more likely to be involved in violent crimes against humans.

I saw a show on Animal Planet that said thousands of dogs used in the Vietnam war were considered "equipment" at the end of the war & were not allowed to come home. Hope the lousy !%!%!%!%!%!%!% who made that decision has a special spot in hell.

I have 7 (yes SEVEN) guinea pigs myself. I also know lots of other people with guinea pigs. We all consider ourselves "slaves" to our little furballs. Each g.p. has its own personality, just like humans. Like human children they have their own demands as well (you should hear them at bedtime wheeking for the fresh veggies!).

ANYWAY, I think it's wrong to consider a living thing with a personality (in other words this would exclude plants) to be "property".

[paulgro]

What you have to understand is dogs trained for war are trained to do one thing and that's kill. The dog is usually trained by one man and will only listen to that person. If he dies or doesn't want the dog when his tour is up, there's nothing they can do with the dog. It will try to kill anyone else that goes near it...

The law see's cats and dogs as property, most people don't. Try and change the law by writing if you feel this way other wise the law won't be changed...

------------------
"I have not failed. I've just found
10,000 ways that won't work."

Ferrets Place (http://www.alferret.co.uk/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi)

[Ada_Doom]

The cat we had in our student house last year was a real personality. He started being a blessed little kitten, then he turned into a teenage boy and used to sulk on our beds if he wasn't fed immediately, and looked at you like you were the stupidest person ever if you tried to play with him. Then again all cats do the latter! He was also as thick as a brick. Sorry. Slightly off point!

------------------
A tractor driver will never know the small pleasure of overtaking another vehicle, just the huge happiness of stopping others from overtaking him.

The man is a God (http://www.jpwsfc.org)

Originally posted by paulgro:
What you have to understand is dogs trained for war are trained to do one thing and that's kill. The dog is usually trained by one man and will only listen to that person. If he dies or doesn't want the dog when his tour is up, there's nothing they can do with the dog. It will try to kill anyone else that goes near it...

The law see's cats and dogs as property, most people don't. Try and change the law by writing if you feel this way other wise the law won't be changed...



According to this show (you know you can believe everything you see! LOL), some of these dogs had been donated by families. The dogs often had multiple handlers because men kept being discharged. The dogs were NOT trained to kill -- they were trained to sniff out snipers, landmines & booby traps. Even police dogs aren't trained to kill, just subdue. They did put some of the dogs through a quarantine & allow them to come home, but the number was like around 300 dogs out of about 4,000. The remaining dogs were to be either euthanized or left with the Vietnamese army (which, being a dog lover, I would have a problem with because the Vietnamese do eat dogs on occasion).

Originally posted by ogb:
...
The most curious aspect about it is that killing someones pet means damage to property.
...
You might not get away that easiely! There still is the "cruelty against animals" law. I think this law is enforced rather rigid with the exeptions of agriculture or research. Note: This law applies only to vertebrate.

------------------

[paulgro]

With the new laws you can get jail time if you killed the pet on purpose. If you happened to hit a dog let's say with a rock but didn't mean to hit the dog and killed it you would pay property damages. What ever the dog is worth not what you think the dog is worth...

------------------
"I have not failed. I've just found
10,000 ways that won't work."

Ferrets Place (http://www.alferret.co.uk/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi)

[BeetleJuice]

Originally posted by paulgro:
With the new laws you can get jail time if you killed the pet on purpose. If you happened to hit a dog let's say with a rock but didn't mean to hit the dog and killed it you would pay property damages. What ever the dog is worth not what you think the dog is worth...



thats prolly a good thing cuz my little guys are priceless to me. money can't replace them http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif



------------------
Go ahead and say my name three times...... I dare ya

One of these days we will look in our microscopes and find ourselves staring right into God's eyes, and the first one who blinks is going to loose his testicles.


http://www.angelfire.com/my/chihuahuas

[ogb]

But I think these laws are only for certain animals and in any case they can only be applied for intentional killing.

[paulgro]

Beetle, I think we all feel that way about our pets... http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif
Ogb, you're right and wrong at least in my country. Yes you can kill a wild animal during hunting season, with the way the state allows...Rifle, shotgun or bow and arrow. It's up to the state. You can't torture an animal to death, you will go to jail and be fined. In our laws the wild animals have rights just like your pets do...

------------------
"I have not failed. I've just found
10,000 ways that won't work."

Ferrets Place (http://www.alferret.co.uk/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi)

[ogb]

I guess Germany has the access to the law from the other side. Next to damage to property (which only exists intentional, you can never be convicted for negligently damaging property) you can only be guilty if the animal you shot is protected by a special law (btw. if you as an ordinary person go to the forest or somewhere else with a rifle or any weapon without permission, you will already be fined or imprisoned for that; hunting is only admitted for professional hunters). The laws mainly protect seldom species, not neighbours dachshund. However, torturing animals surely is disallowed by law.

[This message has been edited by ogb (edited June 17, 2001).]

[paulgro]

Our laws seem to be pretty much the same with minor differences. We have seasons set aside for different types of hunting and the animals you can hunt at the time. Then you're only allowed to kill a certain amount so the population isn't wiped out. It's the same here, you can't hunt on private land without the owners permission. State land you need a permit. I should say so I don't confuse you, you need a permit to hunt anywhere. To go on state land requires another permit to keep the amount of hunters down. This is in New Jersey, other states may be different, I don't know...

------------------
"I have not failed. I've just found
10,000 ways that won't work."

Ferrets Place (http://www.alferret.co.uk/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi)

Hey Paul -- What do you hunt in NJ? Rats? LOL

In Iowa there is a season for almost everything it seems. Deer, Pheasant, Turkey, Squirrel, Raccoon, Beaver, Mink, even Crows & they're working on a Dove season.

Of course, hunting deer by car usually takes place all year. Oh wait -- that's the deer hunting the cars! LOL

[cleoeo]

Here's another tale from Sauk County Wisconsin:
We have a small population of very low income folks out here who live on old played out family farms that were marginal land to begin with and the soil farmed to death two generations ago. They get into legal trouble for having junk vehicles lying around (leaking oil into the groundwater), using unlicensed outhouses (leaking pee into the groundwater), jacklighting deer and other poaching violations (for food), etc. but mostly they just quietly get by. One old guy had a bunch of half wild mongrel dogs that he liked; kind of him and the dogs against the rest of the world. So into the area move some city folks hungry for "Country Living". They built "Country Living" style homes and they did not like having a pack of half wild dogs running deer and barking and fornicating. They kept calling the Sherriff to do something and he started giving the old guy violation tickets that the old guy obviously couldn't pay. Finally realizing he couldn't beat City Hall, the old guy went and shot his only friends, the dogs, and buried them on his place. All Hell broke loose and he got fines up the wazzoo for cruelty to animals and improper disposal of animal remains and I don't know what all. Local common sense finally prevailed and the old guy still lives on his place and has a couple dogs that the humane society gave him, neutered and wormed.

[paulgro]

Originally posted by lackowitz:
Hey Paul -- What do you hunt in NJ? Rats? LOL

In Iowa there is a season for almost everything it seems. Deer, Pheasant, Turkey, Squirrel, Raccoon, Beaver, Mink, even Crows & they're working on a Dove season.

Of course, hunting deer by car usually takes place all year. Oh wait -- that's the deer hunting the cars! LOL

Shows you've never been to Jersey...

------------------
"I have not failed. I've just found
10,000 ways that won't work."

Ferrets Place (http://www.alferret.co.uk/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi)

[Ada_Doom]

At least everyone else in the world manages to hunt without galloping around with a pack of dogs, wearing red (called pink) and playing the trumpet badly! http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

I'm glad it worked out for the bloke in the end Cleoeo. I always get annoyed by Yuppies who buy a weekend home in the country, and are then surprised when it is muddy and smells of manure, and are horrified at the idea that farmers send their sweet little lambs to slaughter. http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/mad.gif http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/wink.gif

------------------
A tractor driver will never know the small pleasure of overtaking another vehicle, just the huge happiness of stopping others from overtaking him.

The man is a God (http://www.jpwsfc.org)

Originally posted by Ada_Doom:
Though the citizens of Hartlepool, UK who hanged a monkey in 17something cos they thought it was a French spy were probably going a bit far.....



Well, some russian childCzar once had a rat hanged after a trial at a court of war, because it accidentaly had overturned his toysoldiers. Thats going far...

[kontulib]

Same here in Finland. Pets and other animals are property but cruelty to animals is illegal and it is punishable by fines or imprisonment not more than two years.