French vocabulary

[Phreakmeister]

Whenever a new word comes into existence, it may only be used in France, after the French Academy (Académie Française) came up with the French word for it. Only the French word is allowed to be used.
So for every new term coming from wherever, it may only be used in France as a French word.

Several words like this:

ENGLISH WORD FRENCH WORD
Computer Ordinateur
VCR Magnétoscope
Walkman Baladeur
E-mail Poste électronique
Car, automobile Voiture
etc.

[paulgro]

That seems strange. Wonder what the purpose is??

------------------
"I have not failed. I've just found
10,000 ways that won't work."


Cosmic Coffee Shop (http://pub83.ezboard.com/bcosmiccoffeeshop)
Mod Squad (http://www.angelfire.com/hi5/serendipity/MSPoster/ModSquad.html) Permit Man (http://www.angelfire.com/hi5/serendipity/Permit/PermitMan.html)

[ogb]

You have to keep the language clean! http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/wink.gif There are also some purists here who try to avoid any English word in the German vocabulary, but they don't have a chance.

But I have to correct you: walkman is in any language just a colloquial expression. The term "Walkman" is protected by Sony, all other firms call theirs like "portable cassette player".

[Phreakmeister]

Paulgro:
The purpose is simple, as OGB said: keep the language clean, keep French French.

OGB:
Well, ok, u're probably right about the 'walkman'-thing, but I was talking about the machine. The word for the 'portable cassette player', which in general is called 'walkman', regardless of the brand, is in French 'baladeur'.

[Serendipity]

I heard a story about a French Parliamentary meeting where they were discussing the "Anglification" of French. At 1 o'clock they went for lunch. On the menu (illegally) was "Le mixed grill"! http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Sjax]

They have the same thing in Iceland. But its even more extreme. Upthere you are not allowed to call your shop, nightclub, company etc english names. All names must be in icelandic. Also imported products. Therefore Iceland is the only place in the world where CocaCola not is called CocaCola.

[amr]

Originally posted by ogb:
There are also some purists here who try to avoid any English word in the German vocabulary, but they don't have a chance...

Especially since German and English are sister languages! There are so many cognates (words that are spelled/pronounced similarly and mean the same in both languages) that avoiding all "English" words is impossible. Apparently they have forgotten that the "Saxon" in "Anglo-Saxon" refers to the Saxony region of Germany!

These are just a few examples off the top of my head (and my last German class was more than 3 years ago, so I apologize in advance for any mistakes)
Wasser -- water
Wolf -- wolf
Wort -- word
Buch -- book
Boot -- boat
Karrotte -- carrot
Salat -- salad
Hound -- hound
Haus -- house
Sack -- sack

[Serendipity]

It miffs me slightly that the French don't want to absorb any of our words, considering the number of French words in the English language.

[Phreakmeister]

Why do you think 'chauvinism' (extreme patriottism) was named after a Frenchman (Nicholas de Chauvin)?

[ogb]

@amr: you are very right (except that 'hound' in German is 'Hund' - although it rather means dog, and hound would be translated as a certain kind of dog), you could go on with this list for hours. But it's also the other way around that German words are taken over into English, e.g. kindergarten, rucksack, Fahrvergnügen (thanks to Volkswagen http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/wink.gif), wunderbar...

I also found a nice example for superfluous French words: I got a calendar which was made for the German, English and French market and is simply called "Skyscrapers" - an international synonym where everybody knows what it means. Just for the French market it is called "Silhouettes urbaines".

Since both English and French were both based on the latin language introduced during the Roman occupation which lasted until 300-400 AD (I think, I'm a little rusty on exact dates), and many of their kings and rulers have been connected (this is especially true when England actually occupied a great portion of France (in the Normandy region under such kings as Charles VII). Sorry if my facts arent exactly detailed, but the point I am trying to make is the fact that with the proximity of each country to one another, and the various connections between them established frequently throughout the past, it is no wonder the two languages are so similar. So with the current view of the French government I would totally have to disagree with....French is not being "anglified", it was already this way.

------------------
Co-Owner
Bueno Technologies

[Sjax]

The danish language also has a lot in common with german and english.
From the latin language as well as the middle ages where the vikings had occupied great parts og Britain. The cities where the names ends on -by (eg Grimsby) are good examples of that. By is simply the danish word for city.
Another english word that always has amused me is ombudsmand. It is taken ddirectly out of the danish vocabulary. Dont let anyone tell you it is a swedish word http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif

[Serendipity]

OK Sjax, I'll not let any Swedes fool me! I live in the north-west of England, there are many places in this area which have pure Viking names: Kirby Thore, Lazonby, Allonby, and many more like that.

Jeff, in the Middle Ages the aristocracy of England spoke what is now called Middle High French, because of the mixture of French and English aristocrats. This is how a lot of French words came into the English Language.

I find it fascinating how all our invaders have contributed to the language, and also how our imperial conquests have added to both our own language and the languages of lands we colonised. One of the most memorable is the various levels of academic qualification in a certain African country (sorry, I'd have to look it up to say which one): A high-school graduate (or equivalent) is a Megotbuk, a degree graduate is a Bigbigbuk, and a student who had obtained an education overseas is a Bintojaguarfridgeful, or someone who has: "been to Oxford and now drives a Jaguar motor car and has a refrigerator full of food".

[ogb]

Originally posted by Jeff:
Sorry if my facts arent exactly detailed, but the point I am trying to make is the fact that with the proximity of each country to one another, and the various connections between them established frequently throughout the past, it is no wonder the two languages are so similar. So with the current view of the French government I would totally have to disagree with....French is not being "anglified", it was already this way.


Well, of course most European languages have their base in Latin (guess that's why they are called Roman languages http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/wink.gif). As I had Latin in school, it makes it lots easier to understand at least written foreign words. But as you also said, it is long, long ago since the single languages seperated and from then on they found an own development. I mean, I am far from being perfect, but English is the easiest language I know. I tried to learn Spanish half a year (also the same origin), but that went too slow so I gave it up. What I basically wanted to reply: of course lots of words sound the same, which helps you a lot as a tourist in the traffic, but I doubt that you will understand much more. Still today languages are changing [we in Germany had a writing reform a couple of years ago to make it easier (they want to steal our ß http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/wink.gif)] and it's only natural that terms of the time are taken over into all languages - because of that it's just silly to artificially forbid those words by law.

[Serendipity]

Regarding the ß, Ogb, have you heard of the American writer Peter Straub? I bet his grandfather wrote his name "Strauß", and other Americans read it as "Straub"...

[ogb]

I have heard about this name, but not of this origin. Well, that's a strange way to put it. In lots of German words now the ß is replaced by ss. However, in surnames it stays the same, e.g. my sisters' is Plaßmann and this won't change. This new rule is sometimes very strange as the words can have a completely different meaning with just one letter difference.

Have any of you seen middle english written or spoken? It resembles French more than English....

------------------
Co-Owner
Bueno Technologies

[Phreakmeister]

Jeff,

English wasn't based on the Latin language. French was, just as Spanish, Portuguese, Catalonian, Romanian and Italian.

English was derived from the ancient Germanic language, spoke by the Saxons. During the centuries, it developed into5 different languages, being: German, Dutch, English, Frisian and Nethersaxon.

[amr]

I was quite suprised when reading early English novels (such as Gulliver's Travels, Robinson Cruso) at how clearly you can see the Germanic roots of the language. After I studied a little German in college to get my language credit, I suddenly understood the peculiar capitalization of the nouns and the general sentence structure.

It is quite amazing to think that lanuages are living things that change and evolve over time. I bet that if you were able to go back in time as little as 50 years you would begin to encounter difficulty communicating.

------------------
I am what I am and that's all I am!

[Phreakmeister]

AMR:
There is even a better example of that. Have you ever heard or read African (one of the official languages of South Africa)?
That's the Dutch the way it was spoken when the colonists came in the 17th and 18th century. After that, Dutch evolved to what it is now. African kinda like stayed the same, with a few influences from like Indian. Dutch and African once were the same language, but they developed separately into two different languages. Dutch will still understand African, and people who speak African will understand Dutch, but the languages have become different.

Great examples of African being 'Dutcher' than Dutch, are these:

ENGLISH - DUTCH - AFRICAN
Chameleon - Kameleon - Verkleurmannetjie (= the little man who changes colour)
Giraf - Giraffe - Kameelperd (= Camel horse)

I'm french and I can tell you this is absolutely not true. There's no law which says that the French Academy will decide which word will be used instead of a foreign word. They try to impose "french-sounding" words but most of the time, it fails. For example, the common use in french is to say "email", like in english. The French Academy proposed "mél". No one used that word. For many people, the French Academy appears like a useless conservative organisation. It's not the French Academy which decides, but the popular use of words.

Now, your examples are quite strange. Yes, the french word for car is voiture. But what is so strange about that ? Really, I don't see where the problem is with that. "magnetoscope" has more meaning for a frenchman than "video camera recorder" (if it's what VCR mean). Walkman is commonly used in french. Isn't it normal for a language to assimilate foreign words and adapt them to its own language ?

Nonetheless, a lot of english words have been kept in french language, like for example, email, CD, DVD, start-up and many others actually. I'm sure that if you come to France, you'll be surprised by the number of english words you would hear or see.

Btw : I believe automobile is a french word at the basis.

Originally posted by Phreakmeister:
Whenever a new word comes into existence, it may only be used in France, after the French Academy (Académie Française) came up with the French word for it. Only the French word is allowed to be used.
So for every new term coming from wherever, it may only be used in France as a French word.

Several words like this:

ENGLISH WORD FRENCH WORD
Computer Ordinateur
VCR Magnétoscope
Walkman Baladeur
E-mail Poste électronique
Car, automobile Voiture
etc.

[Phreakmeister]

Originally posted by draugos:
I'm sure that if you come to France, you'll be surprised by the number of english words you would hear or see.


Well, I've come to France since I was 1 years old, I've been throughout France, at least once every year. So I think that justifies my post here just a tad.

Phreakmeister - don't get arsey, since your examples were a pretty weird selection and draugos made a pretty good point.
You seem to start from the viewpoint that these are words "allocated" by the French to things introduced from England or America which shows determination to use their "own" word.
But the car wasn't invented in Britain or the States. I am not aware of any other languages which use the word "car" (Es - coche, De - Auto, Fr - voiture, It - macchina, etc) and automobile is pretty much internationally used. So this shows nothing about the French attitude.

Draugos shows that your point isn't strictly true, and you defend yourself by saying "I've been going to France at least once a year". With all respect though, I'm afraid I believe the Frenchman more than the Dutchman (you are Dutch aren't you) on common French language usage.

[Phreakmeister]

I'm not getting arsey at all. But since French is kinda like my second language (or first-and-a-half), I also do have a point.
And I wasn't talking about the way the people react to, let's call it language innovations. I was talking about the policy of the government (in casu l'Académie Française). Don't get me wrong about this.

I know that French isn't the only language to use words of their own, instead of anglicisms. But it is true that they use more "own words" than other languages, let's face it.

[Sjax]

I dont know if I consider it a dumb law that a country wants to protect its language. I rather like the idea of lots of different languages.

Viva la difference.


------------------
Who controls the past controls the future: who controls the present controls the past. (George Orwell)

Originally posted by Phreakmeister:
[B] I was talking about the policy of the government (in casu l'Académie Française). Don't get me wrong about this.
B]

Well sorry but you are wrong. The government has no power on the decisions of the Académie Francaise. It's wrong to say that the government uses the Académie Française. It certainly goes on the other direction : the Académie Française which is lobbying to protect the french language.

But you must definitely make a difference between what an old-fashioned institution declares, and the kind of french which is talked by the "common people", the popular french. Don't base all your arguments on the Académie Francaise, which has really no influence on the french talked by the greatest majority. In 1990, the government, supported by the Académie Francaise, made a law to reform the orthograph. Who remembers what was supposed to change ?
http://www.hec.ca/~x067/chroniqueslinguistiques/reformeorthographe.html

While in germanophone countries, such a reform of the orthograph has been successful.

In 1998, the government made another reform, without trying to have the support of the Academie Francaise. The Academie Francaise was consequently opposed to the reform. Yet, this reform had an effect.

[Phreakmeister]

Then I gotta make some adjustments here:

I was never talking about the way the common French people talk. Although they use a lot of French words instead of English, that is not what I was talking about.

The Académie Française is a government. A language government, that is. Albeit without authority, it still is a government.

And although I really support the idea of protect a language against excessive use of words from other languages, there is a point where instead of protecting a language, you ridicule it.

[This message has been edited by Phreakmeister (edited January 29, 2002).]

[Sephirstein]

"They have the same thing in Iceland. But its even more extreme. Upthere you are not allowed to call your shop, nightclub, company etc english names. All names must be in icelandic. Also imported products. Therefore Iceland is the only place in the world where CocaCola not is called CocaCola."

Wow...I never thought of Scandinavians as being so redneck.


And as for Phreakmeiser's "African"...The language is actually called "Afrikaans"...I can't speak it, or Dutch. Afrikaans is spoken by Afrikaaners (Dutch South Africans...Though out of respect for Dutch people I don't use that term because unlike Afrikaaners, people from Holland are not racist Calvinists), Dutch is spoken by Dutch people, and Flemish (a dialect of Dutch) is spoken by Flemish people (people from Belgium).

[Phreakmeister]

The English name for it is Afrikaans as well?

Well, I've been to Coca Cola Ísland (http://www.cocacola.is), and they advertise as Coca Cola there, for the Icelandic market.

Well, the Afrikaner are mostly Dutch. Some of them are English or German immigrants, but the most by far are descendants from the Dutch. Before South Africa became a part of the British Empire, it was Dutch. (Just like a lot of countries and regions on this planet (Sri Lanka, New Zealand, Tasmania, Guyana, Malaysia, Thailand, northern coast of Brazil, parts of India, parts of the Ghana, New York state)
It was all ours :'(, before the English had to take it http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/wink.gif

------------------
Do you believe in death after life?

[This message has been edited by Phreakmeister (edited February 04, 2002).]

Sephirstein, I think its a bit unfair to label a whole race of people as racist Calvinists. What happened in the past does not mean anyone with mother tongue Afrikaans should be cast off as bigoted; otherwise we could do the same for pretty much anybody from Western Europe, the States or in fact a huge proportion of the world.
But I do see your point.

[weldordave]

After reading all this, I have one question and a few comments. Would you consider English and American different languages? I do. When training with the English Army (Scottish Highlanders) verbal communication was a tad difficult. Talking to a Ghurka was right out. I very much appreciate the American stance on language: when a word or phrase is used by enough people and generally understood, it is accepted. No matter what it's origin. We have infantry(from the French "infante") who use latrines(French). A small amount is a skoosh(from Japanese "skoshi"=small,little). We say gushintite(?) when people sneeze(German) and send our children to kindergarden(German). When people get together for a meeting they have a "pow-wow"(native). Our entire law system is English and peppered with Latin terms. The list can go on and on including every language and culture of the world. I think the only contribution that America has given the "world language" is the "F" word! Isn't it true that the world language of science is French, law English, finance American, and so on? It is truly a great time to be alive now with the immediate global communication we have. I predict that all languages will eventually melt into one. But, God bless the USA for the "F" word.

[Phreakmeister]

And f*ck isn't even an American word. It comes from the Dutch word fokken, which means to breed

------------------
Do you believe in death after life?

From my research I have found that it is derived from the German word fleekan (sp?) that means "to strike".

------------------
Co-Owner
Bueno Technologies

[Serendipity]

Well, the precise etymology of the F word is dubious, but let's not argue that out here http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

I find it odd that anyone should have a problem with the French choosing a different word to the English. French is a distinct language, and perhaps having non-English words makes it interesting - not just difficult - for us auslanders who want to learn it (French is my second language). The Acedémie may merely want to keep the conceptual nature of French - if you hadn't noticed, many French terms are conceptual rather than concrete, as English and (I believe) especially German words are.

Originally posted by weldordave:
God bless the USA for the "F" word.

The MOST versital word on the entire planet. There is no other.

[weldordave]

I'm really sorry I brought up the "F" word thing. Please everybody, disregard that part of my post! Sorry Dippy.

[Phreakmeister]

Originally posted by Jeff:
From my research I have found that it is derived from the German word fleekan (sp?) that means "to strike".

You probably meant ficken, which means "to please a female individual using the fingers"
(was that a safe description or what?)

------------------
Do you believe in death after life?

It might be the same word, I really don't know as I can't speak German...

------------------
Co-Owner
Bueno Technologies

[weldordave]

Originally posted by Phreakmeister:
And f*ck isn't even an American word. It comes from the Dutch word fokken, which means to breed


Phreak, the way you spelled it proves it. ITS AMERICAN. Go anywhere in the world and that's the way it is! He who has the cruise missiles.................

[Phreakmeister]

Sure, the word is American, but not the origin of the word. Justice is an English word, but it's not English in origin, because it comes from the Latin word iustitia.

------------------
Do you believe in death after life?

"Purity of language" think is not only present in France, but in many other countries.
In Lithuania, for exemple, there is a "commission of national language", which is a governmental body. This commission aproves new words and pronounces some words to be a "mistake".
And now the best part: if someone uses "mistaken" word instead of commission-aproved word, that person can be fined (the fine is around 25 dollars).