Another way our government robs/controls us

Here is something to think about...in the us you can go to jail if you hit your child. I think this is wrong and i'll tell you why. Ok your child does something f-up and you hit him..he calls child protection and you go to jail. The reason for this law is money. It is another way to generate money in the economy...insted of you yourself correcting your child, you have to pay lawyers..pay for someone else to punish your child(kids boot camp) you have to pay for probation officers, all of these things cost me and you money..just because the government says we cant do what we want in our own homes. Im not saying every parent should be able to kick the crap out of there kids daily....but think back to when you were a kid, we have all done things to deserve it. I'm just mad that govt. can tell us how to raise our children in our own homes.

[Idnew]

Again another law that has gone to the extreme and our kids are taking full advantage of it if they think they can. My daughter threatned me with this when she was about 14 and I hadn't even layed a hand on her, see child word-parent word, anyway what I told her was this, "You go right ahead and call them and by the time they get here you will have something to show them." She never threatned me with that again. Now she didn't know if I would or wouldn't because I never spanked my children unless they had really done something bad, but she also knew that when I said something I usually followed through with it.

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The only time the world beats a path to your door is when you are in the bathroom

Homework Help (http://www.brainmania.com/)

[~wildangel~]

Thats why there are so many spoiled bratts cause there not being disciplined and there doing things like sneaking out the windows late at night(because if you were to lock them in they would call the police saying they were held prisoner)and when they drink you cant whoop there ass for doing that so ofcourse there gonna do it over and over again,like there really gonna listen to there parents,now a days people say "just sit down and TALK to your children" SURE!I cant even try talking to my kids,they turn around and laugh at me then go back to what there doing and I cant Force them to stay in the corner unless I physically PUT them there,so I guess they could call the police for that too! http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/mad.gif

[paulgro]

Lets hear it for Dr. Spock, he started it all!!! http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/tongue.gif

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The Tired Coffee Man

[Idnew]

That idiot I don't think even had children. When my son was in high school, I think the 9th grade, I don't even remember what he did now, but the school gave him the option of taking some licks or getting 3 days suspension. Well of course he took the suspension and I of course went off and went charging up to the school and asking what the hell was going on when you asked a kid what he wanted and not the parents. I made him take the licks and he got into no more trouble in school. So much BS going on anymore it's out of control with the kids.

[Midnight77]

Actually, Dr. Spock did have children, but supposedly he was a horrible parent who did not practice what he preached. And as for the whole child abuse thing, sometimes I am so afraid of punishing my children in public for fear that someone will turn me in. Around here, stores are being told to monitor potential child abuse and to intervene if neccessary. Yes, I said stores. For example, if the employees notice a child acting up and the parents are getting upset at the child, which in my book should be a perfectly normal reaction, the employees are instructed to intervene by asking if there is anything they can do to help and possibly even call in authorities if the parent does strike the child.

Originally posted by Midnight77:
Actually, Dr. Spock did have children, but supposedly he was a horrible parent who did not practice what he preached. And as for the whole child abuse thing, sometimes I am so afraid of punishing my children in public for fear that someone will turn me in. Around here, stores are being told to monitor potential child abuse and to intervene if neccessary. Yes, I said stores. For example, if the employees notice a child acting up and the parents are getting upset at the child, which in my book should be a perfectly normal reaction, the employees are instructed to intervene by asking if there is anything they can do to help and possibly even call in authorities if the parent does strike the child.Wow..this is absolutley riddicuolous....I cant believe I just read that!!!!The employes of the stores are told to intervene ,....to call the police! Who is some "kid" who works at a store going to say how to teach/disipline my child....i would tell him were to jump off...or anyone for that matter...If you think about this one for a second...it is very nerve-wreaking....

(annoyed)...Erich

[Serendipity]

Yeah, the law places some senseless restrictions on itself, in the name of equality. I mean, the law cannot tell the difference between a parent justly reprimanding a child and a parent savagely abusing a child. When I was a kid I went into hospital for an operation, we lived in the country and I did all the usual kid things, falling off my bike, climbing trees, etc, and my legs were covered in bruises from all this. The doctors took one look at my legs and straightaway asked me if my folks were abusing me. OF COURSE NOT!! But they couldn't tell.
The law presumes that when a citizen reaches a certain age, s/he is capable of holding a certain degree of responsibility (driving, firearms use, having sex, drinking alcohol, holding public office, etc). How on earth the legislators arrived at this method of assessing a person's level of responsibility is beyond me. And so it goes.

As is to be expected, I disagree with everyone. I see everyone's point about it going too far, but unfortunately sometimes that's how it is in order to protect the innocent. Some children really do get beaten. This is totally wrong. And stores should intervene. Would you have a problem with store intervening if some other crime were being committed? Hitting a child is the equivalent of assault. Doing so can be very traumatic for a child. Sure, it may curb their behaviour briefly, but it only develops aggression and the notion that violence solves problems. But violence does not solve problems, it simply covers them. Perhaps your child won't listen. This can be a problem especially with teens. They drink or sneak out? Hitting them won't stop them. You're just going to have to accept that they are independent human beings capable of making their own decisions.

[paulgro]

When they leave the house and support themselves they can make all the decisions they want!
BTW, how old are you?

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The Tired Coffee Man

[wendy66]

Coca, you are sadly, misinformed. I am the mother of 3 children (G13, B11 and G7). We spanked our children when they were younger, *note, I did not say BEAT* when they were out of control or did something dangerous to themselves or someone else. It is called discipline. Spanking was used to "shock" the kids into reality that they could NOT continue the behavior they were acting on. They were not bruised and it worked. They are not agressive children, none of my children have been in a physical "fight" (with the exception of my only son, ONCE in 3rd grade, which is a common thing on the playground at school) They only need to be repremanded (or grounded) now and we haven't had to spank for years. As a matter of fact, we didn't need to after the age of 4 w/ each of them. Now, I know the alternative because I have neices and nephews who haven't been "spanked". They have been disciplined through quietly talking with the child, explaining that their behavior is inappropriate, and "time out". They are the most obnoxious children who cannot get along w/ others and ALSO they HIT and BITE other kids (and their parents) on a regular basis. Anger turns into violence w/ children who lack self-control. Parents teach self-control by showing the kids that they are NOT the center of the universe, and they have to live within guidelines of society. Now, I do not think that children should be BEATEN, that ruins their self-esteem. But a swat on the butt is a wake up call, nothing more.

[This message has been edited by wendy66 (edited December 17, 2000).]

Originally posted by paulgro:
When they leave the house and support themselves they can make all the decisions they want!

Similar to the "If you wanna live under my roof, you live under my rules" argument. It makes sense enough, but do you really want to control your children with threats to their entire life? Or control them with things you buy, rather than something like love? PErsonally, I always hate it whenever I'm having any sort of discussion with one of my parents and they bring up things that they have bought me, as if it were relevant to the dialogue. My love and respect will not be bought off.

BTW, how old are you?

17.

Originally posted by wendy66:
Coca, you are sadly, misinformed. I am the mother of 3 children (G13, B11 and G7). We spanked our children when they were younger, *note, I did not say BEAT* when they were out of control or did something dangerous to themselves or someone else. It is called discipline. Spanking was used to "shock" the kids into reality that they could NOT continue the behavior they were acting on. They were not bruised and it worked. They are not agressive children, none of my children have been in a physical "fight" (with the exception of my only son, ONCE in 3rd grade, which is a common thing on the playground at school) They only need to be repremanded (or grounded) now and we haven't had to spank for years. As a matter of fact, we didn't need to after the age of 4 w/ each of them. Now, I know the alternative because I have neices and nephews who haven't been "spanked". They have been disciplined through quietly talking with the child, explaining that their behavior is inappropriate, and "time out". They are the most obnoxious children who cannot get along w/ others and ALSO they HIT and BITE other kids (and their parents) on a regular basis. Anger turns into violence w/ children who lack self-control. Parents teach self-control by showing the kids that they are NOT the center of the universe, and they have to live within guidelines of society. Now, I do not think that children should be BEATEN, that ruins their self-esteem. But a swat on the butt is a wake up call, nothing more.

[This message has been edited by wendy66 (edited December 17, 2000).]

I'm sorry, but I don't tend to be compelled by anecdotal evidence. BUt as long as that's what we're using, I'll give my experiences. I noticed that there doesn't tend to much behaviour difference in the children of parents who are strict and those who aren't, the only difference is that kids' whose parents are strict tend to hide what they do to a much greater extent. Personally, I don't feel the need to hide very much behaviour from my mom, because she is so open, but both me and mom tend not to tell my dad things because he just wouldn't accept them. As for being brought up, my parents treated me as a responsible person from a young age, capable of making my own decisions. I would learn the consequences of my actions, rather than punishments. Psychologically, this helps make a strong connection between right and wrong due to both positive and negative reinforcement. I think it has caused me to become a free-thinking individual, which is a very important thing to me. Critical thinking and analysis are both great, IMO, yet very few are fond of them.

[wendy66]

Coca, no disrespect intended, but your "experiences" come from 17 years of being in the position of receiving discipline not raising children. Being a child and then an adult and then a mother, I have had much time to ponder such thoughts. Of course that doesn't make your opinion invalid but lacking in real experience. I am extremely "open" and loving w/ my children and they are "free-thinking" individuals. When you have children of your own, the opinions you have now will go right out the window and you will face life with an adult outlook. The love I have for my children is the reason I discipline them in the first place. Now, you may not spank your children, your choice of course.

My views and opinions will almost certainly change, that is unquestionable. But spanking a child is assault plain and simple. I don't punch people in the face when they do things that I think are wrong. If I did, I wouldn't be here writing my post.

[paulgro]

17 now I understand why you seem to disagree with evrybody on everything. You have a bad habbit of reading things in posts that aren't there. Get the chip off your shoulder and read the posts then answer. Unless you just like to argue whether you're right or wrong.

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The Tired Coffee Man

Originally posted by paulgro:
17 now I understand why you seem to disagree with evrybody on everything. You have a bad habbit of reading things in posts that aren't there.

Quite a lowblow, really. Ok, if I made a mistake I'm sorry. What have I read into?

Get the chip off your shoulder and read the posts then answer.

I haven't a chip on my shoulder. Now who's reading into things?

Coca, I was really diappointed in reading this thread, and this being my first visit here. I doubt I will return. I just wanted to say that I agree with you wholeheartedly!!!!! There is never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever a reason to hit a child. I don't care what they've done. Striking children only shows a lack of ability to deal with things in a more intelligent and adult manner. After all aren't parent's supposed to be a bit more educated than their children? Isn't resorting to hitting operating on an elementary school level?

I can not believe that this tread exists, condoning the hitting of children!!! I'm appauled! How would you all enjoy going to work every day if, when you made a mistake, your boss hauled off and hit you? I suspect no one would appreciate that. And would find that inconceivable. Why then is it so out of line to demand the same respect for our children? Children can be desciplined in many more ways that smacking them.

Yes, I am that man at your local store that will step up to you if you hit your child when I'm watching. If you think about that it's sad that a total stranger would care more for your children's well-being than the parent themself.

As H.G. Wells once wrote. "The first man to raise a fist is a man who's run out of ideas." Don't hit your children simply because you can not figure out a better way to deal with them. Get help if you are that bad at parenting.

For the record I am not a teenager.

I will not return to this board, because I obviously do not fit the mind set of most of the members here.

I wish you well Coca. Stick to your beliefs, they are far better than some others I have read.

[~wildangel~]

Originally posted by Buzz:
Coca, I was really diappointed in reading this thread, and this being my first visit here. I doubt I will return. I just wanted to say that I agree with you wholeheartedly!!!!! There is never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever a reason to hit a child.

(wild)You mean spank? Do you have kids?

(Buzz)I don't care what they've done. Striking children only shows a lack of ability to deal with things in a more intelligent and adult manner.

(wild)There children they are not capable of understanding a man to man conversation and they certainly arent going to listen to you so that statement is completelly ruled out.

(buzz)After all aren't parent's supposed to be a bit more educated than their children? Isn't resorting to hitting operating on an elementary school level?

(wild)Hmmm,thats called discipline and children HAVE to be disciplined,loved and disciplined or they will control everything.

(buzz)I can not believe that this tread exists, condoning the hitting of children!!!

(wild)Again you mean spanked and do you have children,if so how do you discipline them and if so than how?Personally I really hope you dont!

(buzz)I'm appauled! How would you all enjoy going to work every day if, when you made a mistake, your boss hauled off and hit you?

(wild)I hope he likes getting hit back!You say thats immature but I am capable of having an adult conversation with my boss!Here me ADULT.You see there is a FAT line between children and adult,you need to figure that out.

(buzz)I suspect no one would appreciate that. And would find that inconceivable. Why then is it so out of line to demand the same respect for our children? Children can be desciplined in many more ways that smacking them. Yes, I am that man at your local store that will step up to you if you hit your child when I'm watching.

(wild)You would not step up to me anywere for disciplining my children or you just may get spanked too! http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

(buzz)If you think about that it's sad that a total stranger would care more for your children's well-being than the parent themself.

(wild)You dont care about the wellbeing of my child,my children are 3 and 4 and they are two of the wildest boys, they continued to jump from bed to bed and we did'nt spank them for the longest time and I TALKED to them "now Austen you know that you could crack your head open on the head board if you keep on jumping across like that"
What do you think happened???One day my hubby and I are sitting in the living room and in comes austen with blood pouring out of his head!

(buzz)As H.G. Wells once wrote. "The first man to raise a fist is a man who's run out of ideas."

(wild)I have tried EVERYTHING!

(buzz)Don't hit your children simply because you can not figure out a better way to deal with them. Get help if you are that bad at parenting.For the record I am not a teenager. I will not return to this board, because I obviously do not fit the mind set of most of the members here. I wish you well Coca. Stick to your beliefs, they are far better than some others I have read.
(wild) Good Riddence! http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/biggrin.gif



[This message has been edited by ~wildangel~ (edited December 18, 2000).]

[Midnight77]

Wild, I'm right there with you. I have a son(6) and a daughter (3). I completely understand that the reasoning thing just doesn't work with young children. It has to do with the fact that they do not yet have the reasoning capacity to understand on such a mature level, much like nearly all teenagers think they are invincable. My son is now only just starting to understand that his actions can have potentially serious consequences. As parents, we can only continue to do what we feel is best for our children, and if that means that sometimes they get spanked, then that is what we must do. The real key is never discipline when you're angry, and always discipline out of love.

[cleoeo]

I'm having trouble getting straight what age group is being considered "children" in this string.
A mother slapping her four year old on the behind when he runs into the road is an effective way to keep him from getting hit by a truck in the future. He may not understand the concept of getting hit by a truck, but he sure does grasp the idea of a swat on the rear from Mom.
A mother slapping her 16 year old on the face when he sneaks out is not an effective way to keep him from getting into trouble. Just doesn't work. Trust me on this one.
BTW Erich, eventually that kid's gonna be bigger than you. I hope you're not teaching him that violence commands respect, or one day you may be very glad when the cops do show up and pull him off of you.

[paulgro]

Originally posted by Coca:
I haven't a chip on my shoulder. Now who's reading into things?

First of all, I'm not trying to make an enemy out of you. So don't think I am. Saying I understand because you are 17 wasn't a low blow. I said that because your statements show a lack of maturity. Like it or not, you are 17 and I'm 51. I think I've learned a few more thing in life then you have. Everything you've done, I've done and moved on and probably did a few things you wouldn't dream of doing!
As for the chip, you seem to attack every post instead of reading them to see if they might make sense. Sometimes you learn more by saying nothing, but you never learn anything by attacking someone. If you want to talk, I'll talk! If you want to attack, then I have nothing to say to you!!

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The Tired Coffee Man

Well since that guy buzz is is never coming back to this board..(but I hope he or she see's this)...How can you compare disiplining a child to disiplining someone at work...(buzz)how would you like it if your boss did the same thing at work)...Give me a break Buzz...Apparently yoe ARE a teenager or you must not think your thoughts through very much...(same)...of course someone who is employable does not have the same mind set as a child....of course your boss isnt going to spank you...your thought process is child-like...and frankly...im happy not to see your comments here again. To not visit this board because of one thread of disscussion is absured...there are so many more topics and disscussions i havent even seen...this is only one bitty piece of this bored, im just annoyed that someone would judge such a huge page of information, to just write it off because of one piece of info. You need to expand your thoughts buddy...not just on this subject...everywhere...because apparantly your a closed minded $#@%$#%$#!!!!!

PS....(buzz)..."i will not return to this bored because i am not in the same mind set as others here) Well, i imagine that if you would visit more you would find this not to be true...there are many great thinkers here...i read the postings here and really take from them....you are a real ignorant self-centered individual buzz

[wendy66]

Wow!!!! What a heated thread!!!! Whew! Hats off to Paulgro, Wild, Erich, midnight, cleoeo, well said. Coca, when I replied to your post, I thought long and hard about how to repond to your comments w/o sounding condescending (because of your age). I hope that you will do the same. This forum is for discussion of opinion.

Originally posted by paulgro:
First of all, I'm not trying to make an enemy out of you. So don't think I am.[ /B]

The thought hadn't crossed my mind.

Saying I understand because you are 17 wasn't a low blow. I said that because your statements show a lack of maturity.

IMO, that is a low blow. It's as if to say my thoughts don't count because I'm young. Define maturity. The most mature people I know are quite young, and the most immature fall into many age categories.

Like it or not, you are 17 and I'm 51. I think I've learned a few more thing in life then you have.

Gaining experiences and learning things are two entirely different subjects. Granted, you obviously have some knowledge I do not, but, just as obviously, I am sure that there are some subjects where my knowledge exceeds yours just as much, and perhaps to a greater extent.

Everything you've done, I've done and moved on and probably did a few things you wouldn't dream of doing!

I doubt it. You don't know me or what I've done or would do.

As for the chip, you seem to attack every post instead of reading them to see if they might make sense.

I do both, actually. I attack them because they don't make sense, more often than not. And I'm not really attacking either, but many seem to perceive it that way, so I guess it's a matter of opinion.

Sometimes you learn more by saying nothing, but you never learn anything by attacking someone. If you want to talk, I'll talk! If you want to attack, then I have nothing to say to you!!

Personally, I think conflict is one of the only ways to grow. I can't remember who proposed the concept, but it goes that first one has a thesis, followed by the antithesis, followed by synthesis, and so on, until, eventually, the truth is discovered.

[/QUOTE]

Originally posted by wendy66:
Coca, when I replied to your post, I thought long and hard about how to repond to your comments w/o sounding condescending (because of your age). I hope that you will do the same. This forum is for discussion of opinion.

I am never condescending. If I have been perceived to have been then I apologize, but I really don't see it. I don't think I ever called anyone any names at all, though you have called me sadly misinformed.

[Serendipity]

Coca, I, like everyone else here, don't want to make an enemy of you, particularly as you're obviously not stupid, you have a broad vocabulary and a good brain (tho' you could learn to read more thoroughly and write less ambiguously: over-conciseness is not a virtue I rate!!)(eg: Wendy didn't accuse you of being condescending, I find it quite amusing that you thought she did). What bothers me about your posts is that while you mean well for the world (veganism, anti-Macdonalds, etc), you realise neither how dogmatic you are, nor apparently how insolent you sound. To continue where Paulgro left off, I very much doubt you have done anything I haven't done, including make mistakes. Here's a challenge: if you want to reply to this post, write me a paragraph, don't just quote back with smart-arse interspersions.

I think conciseness is one of my most obvious qualities. What can I say? I have too short an attention span to read long posts, so I tend not to write them either. I'm a product of my generation http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif. Looking back, I agree that I did read too much into wendy's post, and I apologize for that too. Hazard of the medium, I suppose. I really think that I'm the opposite of dogmatic, but I guess that's open to interpretation. As to the insolence, I again think it's the medium. I have found on other forums that people have even found anger in my posts that wasn't there at all. Then again, perhaps I really am insolent, it wouldn't surprise me, though have the feeling other teens wouldn't find me insolent (or at least not as much). At least in real life they don't, many are much much more so (hell, I've got friends who greet me with the phrase "F*ck you", to which I reply, "Up yours", and neither of us are the least bit offended. But, given the nature of the net, I imagine if I greeted people here with that phrase, I would soon be bannished http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif ). I've definitely made mistakes, but I'm sure that there are things I've done and people my age have done or had occur to them that you have not, and that no one who hasn't could possibly understand. Things far too personal to discuss in a public forum. So, will this 'essay' be marked? http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by Coca (edited December 19, 2000).]

[Serendipity]

I apologise for doing what I criticised, but wotthehell. http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Coca:
I think conciseness is one of my most obvious qualities. What can I say?

It was OVER-conciseness I mentioned, ie using too few words to get your point across clearly.

I have too short an attention span to read long posts, so I tend not to write them either. I'm a product of my generation http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif.

That's no excuse; we're all products of our respective generations. Short attention spans are certainly not solely the property of the young.

Looking back, I agree that I did read too much into wendy's post, and I apologize for that too. Hazard of the medium, I suppose.

You suppose? I don't know what you mean by this. The medium is the English language, and what Wendy meant was clear.

I really think that I'm the opposite of dogmatic, but I guess that's open to interpretation.

Too right http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif. You're not communicating with your computer here, but real people (I know you know this, but I feel you need reminding sometimes).

As to the insolence, I again think it's the medium. I have found on other forums that people have even found anger in my posts that wasn't there at all. Then again, perhaps I really am insolent, it wouldn't surprise me, though have the feeling other teens wouldn't find me insolent (or at least not as much). At least in real life they don't, many are much much more so (hell, I've got friends who greet me with the phrase "F*ck you", to which I reply, "Up yours", and neither of us are the least bit offended. But, given the nature of the net, I imagine if I greeted people here with that phrase, I would soon be bannished http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif ).

How you interact with your friends IRL is up to you, of course; I treat some of my friends in exactly the same way, others I treat differently depending on their sensibilities.

I've definitely made mistakes, but I'm sure that there are things I've done and people my age have done or had occur to them that you have not, and that no one who hasn't could possibly understand. Things far too personal to discuss in a public forum.

Don't underestimate us! Whilst it's usually d*mn nigh impossible to learn from other people's experiences, most things that can possibly happen have happened, to all sorts of people who have all sorts of ways of coping. If it's so personal that you cannot or don't want to discuss it openly then fair enough, nobody's forcing you, but if you don't give an example then we'll never know. Myself, I've helped people through drugs problems, done stacks of political protesting, dealt with suicides, all manner of relationship and family tussles, performed at some *very* prestigious venues, done daft things in warzones, and at the end of it I'm shockproof. "Possibly understand"? It isn't my business to understand all your personal experiences (if it were then I'd charge you http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif), it's yours. Quite frankly I don't want to know because I don't think you're that interesting or unique.

So, will this 'essay' be marked? http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

No, of course not. Ok then, B+ http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Serendipity]

…And another thing…

[b] Personally, I think conflict is one of the only ways to grow. I can't remember who proposed the concept, but it goes that first one has a thesis, followed by the antithesis, followed by synthesis, and so on, until, eventually, the truth is discovered.[b/]

What are you trying to do here, Coca? Dazzle people with your grasp of the terminology of dialectic? Cuts no mustard here, you’re out by two degrees. Verbal [b] conflict [b/] is won by either refusing to shut up or refusing to listen; either way, the victory is empty. [b] Debate [b/] is won by having the best information and/or the strongest argument. A [b] discussion [b/] (and these are discussion boards) is where the thesis – antithesis – synthesis (I’m not sure who first described it either. Plato seems most likely) sequence operates; a short attention span (still there?! http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif) limits the quality of analysis, which should precede any discussion. The best thing a discussion can hope to achieve is balanced opinion, which is not necessarily the truth.

For anybody wondering what the blue blazes I’m waffling about, I’ll explain: A thesis is an idea, opinion, or theory. An antithesis is the counter-opinion. Synthesis is the process whereby these two are reconciled. Example:- (Thesis): More than 50% of Canadian punks talk garbage. (Antithesis): Less than 50% of Canadian punks talk garbage. (Synthesis): About 50% of Canadian punks talk garbage. http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif As I said, not necessarily the truth.

The moral of the story is: if you’re gonna be concise, be precise.

[~wildangel~]

For anybody wondering what the blue blazes I’m waffling about, I’ll explain: A thesis is an idea, opinion, or theory. An antithesis is the counter-opinion. Synthesis is the process whereby these two are reconciled. Example:- (Thesis): More than 50% of Canadian punks talk garbage. (Antithesis): Less than 50% of Canadian punks talk garbage. (Synthesis): About 50% of Canadian punks talk garbage. http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif As I said, not necessarily the truth.

The moral of the story is: if you’re gonna be concise, be precise.[/B]

.............................................Thank 's so much for the explanation dippy!Us ppl of small brain might have been confused...at least I was anyway,LOL http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/wink.gif http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/tongue.gif http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Originally posted by Serendipity:
…And another thing…

[b] Personally, I think conflict is one of the only ways to grow. I can't remember who proposed the concept, but it goes that first one has a thesis, followed by the antithesis, followed by synthesis, and so on, until, eventually, the truth is discovered.[b/]

What are you trying to do here, Coca? Dazzle people with your grasp of the terminology of dialectic?

No, not at all. What, can I not bring up an idea from Hegel (I remembered today) without being accused of trying to show off? Is anything intelligent automatically an attempt to make myself look good?

Cuts no mustard here, you’re out by two degrees.

What are you trying to do? Dazzle everybody?

Verbal conflict is won by either refusing to shut up or refusing to listen; either way, the victory is empty.

Maybe that's how you win, but not me.

Debate is won by having the best information and/or the strongest argument.

ONe can debate verbally. If you're saying that a debate is not a conflict then I think you're really just getting semantical, which is pointless, IMO.

A discussion (and these are discussion boards) is where the thesis – antithesis – synthesis (I’m not sure who first described it either. Plato seems most likely) sequence operates; a short attention span (still there?! http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif) limits the quality of analysis, which should precede any discussion. The best thing a discussion can hope to achieve is balanced opinion, which is not necessarily the truth.

Again, it's just semantics. Fine, "discussion" is one of the only ways to grow, not "conflict".

[This message has been edited by Coca (edited December 21, 2000).]

[Serendipity]

Can't you distinguish between a shouting match (verbal conflict) and a debate?

Semantics? Verbal conflict, debate, and discussion are not synonymous.

A far better way to grow is to learn how to be responsible for your actions.

Originally posted by Serendipity:
Can't you distinguish between a shouting match (verbal conflict) and a debate?

I think you're being rather narrow in your definitions. A verbal conflict isn't inherently a shouting match. Conflict can be defined as nothing more than contradictory, as in two people rationally discussing contradictory opinions are conflicting.

Semantics? Verbal conflict, debate, and discussion are not synonymous.

No, but they are not mutually exclusive either.

A far better way to grow is to learn how to be responsible for your actions.

But one must have outside perspectives and sources for new ideas. And one can do both, they are not conflicting means of growth.

[Serendipity]

First 2 points: If you can't be bothered to learn these nuances, it's your loss. I'm not continuing to correspond with you for my own benefit, but yours. You may have noticed that nobody's criticising what I say, and I'm not the only one to have been wound up by your posts. Going back to whether I'm trying to dazzle, no, I always try to clarify. You introduced those dialectic terms without explanation. I explained them, however crudely.


Originally posted by Coca:
But one must have outside perspectives and sources for new ideas. And one can do both, they are not conflicting means of growth.

Communicating is action. Doing stuff is action. Getting involved in conflicts is action. Anything you do that somehow affects the outside world is action. Be responsible for your actions!

I'm not usually so low as to resort to name-calling, but...
You're So Vain, You Prob'ly Think This Thread Is About You.

[Lis]

WEll I'm not even going to bother tying to understand this lil fued you two have going on for fear of just being utterly wrong.... http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif

I would, however like to give my opinion on the original topic, hitting your children (in whatever degree) for the purpose of discipline. I must say I hate it...I think that weather it's successful in stopping bad behaviour or not...it causes complete lack of respect for the parent. Speaking from experience, which before I create contoroversy over, is all I can speak from...my dad and I have an awsome relationship and he has never once that I can remember, hit me. He mostly gives me the freedom to make my own choices...whether it be about drinking, sex, smoking etc. and this seems to work well for both of us because when he says no where he sees fit...I dont do it because I can see his logic, this would be IMO due to raising me successfully? My mum on the other hand, would SPANK me or scream at me when I'd done something wrong (between the ages of about 2-7) natrually I dont live with her anymore and have very little respect for her...I'm not sure what you're to learn from this as I'm just one induvidual case...but to me it proves that there are much more effective ways of raising a child...I, however can only speak from a child/teens point of view.

Originally posted by Serendipity:
First 2 points: If you can't be bothered to learn these nuances, it's your loss.

There aren't necessarily differences. You can look it up in the distionary if you want.

I'm not continuing to correspond with you for my own benefit, but yours.

Um, thank you? It's very honourable of you? I'm not sure what your point is. If don't wish to converse with me, you don't have to, geez.

You may have noticed that nobody's criticising what I say, and I'm not the only one to have been wound up by your posts.

Congratulations?

Going back to whether I'm trying to dazzle, no, I always try to clarify. You introduced those dialectic terms without explanation. I explained them, however crudely.

I was being sarcastic. I was pointing out that discussing something intelligent is not inherently an attempt to gain notice for intelligence.


Communicating is action. Doing stuff is action. Getting involved in conflicts is action. Anything you do that somehow affects the outside world is action. Be responsible for your actions!

Ok. I am responsible for my actions.

I'm not usually so low as to resort to name-calling, but...
You're So Vain, You Prob'ly Think This Thread Is About You.

I was pretty certain the thread was about beating children, actually.

[wendy66]

actually the thread was originally about whether the government has the right to intervene in the disciplinary actions of parents. IMO ...I REPEAT... IN MY OPINION, There is a difference between spanking, hitting and beating. Let me explain... Spanking- a quick slap on the bottom, not to inflict a wound, but to shock or stop a child from continuing a certain behavior. Hitting- used to physically hurt someone as much as the force of your hand or fist may create. Beating- repeatedly hitting someone over and over to humiliate or physically wound someone. Now, that said.... let me give an example. If a person came up to you and punched you in the face , would you tell your friends that the person hit, spanked or beat you? Now if that same person punched you until you were lying on the ground and couldn't get up, again, would you tell your friends that you were spanked, hit or beaten? ANYONE UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M GETTING AT?

True enough, but if some guy came up and slapped my ass I wouldn't be too happy either http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif

[~wildangel~]

Hi,Im back!(dont run away too fast,hehe http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/wink.gif)
WENDY,I understand completely what your talking about because I have children of my own and I spank them when there naughty.I also tell them "santa wont bring you presents if you dont CLEAN your ROOM!"I dont scream at them though sometimes I YELL at them.I'm with them ALL day LONG,every single day of my LIFE!A (MAN/WOMAN)CAN only take SO much torture before getting that spoon out and whooping there asses!
Im very close to my children though.These boys (let me repeat that,BOYS.Boys that wrestle and fight and make loud gun popping noises and take knives out of the drawers to pretend there action hero's,BOYS that leap off couches and punch eachother in the faces and litteraly break dresser drawers and throw balls around the living room and pretend to be superman by jumping off the porch onto the rocks and then scrape there knees and bruise there faces as they land.)
Dont get me wrong,my kids are my life,my buddy's,my angels(when there sleeping)and I would'nt hurt them for the world.I would never hit them to inflict serious pain on them,but I do think a nice red ass by the spoon sometimes works great! http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif

Liz,I understand where your coming from that you had a good relationship with your father but do you think the reason you dont respect your mother is because she spanked you,or could there be something deeper?You dont have to tell me I just dont think spanking would be enough for me to disrespect my mother,but maybe she spanked you too often or not for good enough reason or maybe she screamed at you for no good reason like my grandmother did to me,it was wrong too so I know where your coming from... http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/wink.gif

My mom raised 8 children till I was 11 then one of my little sisters got hit by a car because she ran through a crosswalk and a drunk woman hit her which caused years of pain for my mother.she has raised 7 children since then,me being the oldest and I can tell you there are times I wish my mother would have spanked me!After the accident my mom pretty much let me do anything I wanted.I was a hellion though,not like most kids.I remember my mom running after us with spanking spoons and I dont think anything different of her because she always showed us both love and discipline. http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/wink.gifCome to think of it my hubby's mom did the same thing.There both wonderfull mothers and I would never take them for granted.

Last but not least I think It all depends on the parent/mother/father/actions of the child ect.(tone of voice,way of action,cause of conflict ect.)Different varying degrees,reasons why such a spanking Is needed,how often,you know what I mean?!

[Serendipity]

Lis, it sounds like you have a lousy mother. Naturally, you're not supposed to *like* being spanked, or any other physical punishment, but in the would you object to physical punishment that didn't harm you long term, just made sure that when you did something wrong, you knew it? My old man would whack me if I seriously misbehaved, but he made sure I understood what it was all about, and it never came near to abuse; I never doubted that my parents loved me.

[Lis]

Wild http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif I have no problems talking about it with you http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif*hmmms* well, I'm not really sure ...the years I lived with my mum were not the most peaceful you could ask for, she's a very confused and small-minded person in many ways and tends to push everyone who loves her away. In this way I guess I lost respect for her due to many things and perhaps I'm just resentful of the way she is towards me in general, not just the way we (all my siblings) were treated when we were young. She wasn't a maniac, don't get me wrong...she would never SPANK us with intent to cause huge amounts of pain...I mean, she wasn't really phisically abusive, mentally though *whao*, lets just say it could possibly cause some of us alot of money in therepy in years to come....but back to my point any SPANKING she did prolly was in very bad taste, and not really for the right reasons...as was her screaming....but IMO abuse of any kind to disipline just kind of seems hypocritical to me...."You did something bad to someone or something else so I'm going to do something bad to you so you understand" ...it just doesn't seem logical to me?

Dipy- Yeah she can be pretty lousy...to put it nicely :rollseyes: But that's a whole other story....I think I DID mind being phisically punished though...I mean perhaps being a kid I'd over-react, but I dont believe I got the point that what I did was wrong...just kind of thought mum was a bi*ch. I have a little step-sister (3yrs) who has been spoilt in the past because she's was an only child and she has had huge behavioral problems (since she moved in with us)...but dad and my step-mum have learnt a disipline system that works really well and requires no SPANKING at all...so I've seen better options and I just dont think there's any need for it.

sorry that was so long guys http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/frown.gif

[paulgro]

Too many time when you tell a small child not to touch something, they touch it anyway. If I see a two year old reaching for a lit stove burner what should I do? If I say don't touch its hot, then walk away more then likely I'm going to have a burnt child. If I hit the childs hand the child think pain and burner. In two seconds that pain goes away, in two days the pain from the burner will still be there.

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The Tired Coffee Man

[Idnew]

Wow I should have been keeping up with this thread. I see Buzz followed me over here from my link and popped back out again. Well Buzz if you pop back in I am really surprised at your attitude. I must commend all of you on keeping this a clean debate and remember in all debates it's just one persons view and there should never be name calling because someone believes different than you. I had a debate with coco early on and found out that he is just a typical teenager that believes he is right on every subject and all adults are wrong. I must say Lis seems very mature for her age. We've all been there and we adults outgrew it when we had children of our own. BTW I raised 6, four boys 3 girls and now I have 6 grands, two boys four girls so think I'm fairly qualified on children, plus I was the oldest out of 7 and therefore had to take care of my siblings a lot. So here are a few examples. Beating your children and spanking your children are two entirelydifferent things. My father spanked me my sadestic step-father beat us.

One of my nieces has a, and I use this lightly,mother(my sister) that did absolutley nothing but holler at her daughter and showed her no love. My niece and her stayed with me once and our house had central a/c. My daughter BTW is 5 mo younger than her. Anyway, I told both of them to stay away from the a/c and not stick their finger in the grill or they would cut their finger. Well what does my niece do but stick her finger in it. We had a colt that would kick so I told them both to not get behind him. What does my niece do but get behind him and he kicks her in the chest. They were about 5 yr at the time. My niece did the opposite of everything you told her. She also was a thief and still is with two children of her own now. Anyway I finally determined she was doing these things just to get attention from her mother, but all she got was hollered at. I very rarely spanked my children, but I did spank them when they did something really bad.

Another sister and her two demon sons came to live me. They were terrors and when I found out she was "reasoning with them by talking" which was getting her no where I took over, because they were destroying my house while I was at work, because she couldn't control them. Didn't know how I guess. They would get up in the morning and she would ask them what they wanted for breakfast and maybe they said cereal, by the time she had it fixed they didn't want it and wanted something else,she fix that, again same thing. Guess who was buying the food that was getting thrown out the back door to the dogs? Wasn't her. (She would, hahaha, spank them once in a great while then turn right around and apoligize for it, did absolutley no good whatsoever) Her 5 year old was still wearing diapers and I thought that was pretty disgusting. After about two weeks of this I told my husband to go cut me some peach switches I had enough. (My sister, you take care of it he said) Hold on before you go hollering how cruel I am. I first sat her down with her two sons cowering in her lap after I came home and found they had gotten the eggs out of the nests and thrown them against the side of the house. The final straw. So I told her it looked like I would have to raise her along with her sons and that as long as she was staying in my house to keep her mouth shut about me making them behave. They also didn't want to eat anything you cooked. Wouldn't even try it, just say they didn't like it. She couldn't go to the bathroom they were right up under her all the time. *sorry this is so long, but when I get started don't know when to stop http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/biggrin.gif* Anyway I started by "talking" to them to no good. Also we were re-doing a porch and throwing the old lumber in a pile and I told them to stay away from it because of the nails. You guessed it. The oldest one promptly got in the wood and stepped on a nail. My sister was freaking out with him with this nail in his foot with a board attached. She didn't even know what to do. I just yanked it out. Back to the disipline. So talking didn't do any good then I sat them in a chair in a corner for awhile and increased the time by 5 minutes each time I did it. They of course started screaming for mom and crying as loud as they could so I got a fly swatter and told them I would give them something to cry about if they didn't shut up. Bet your wondering about the peach switches. http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif Well they also didn't like to go outside, but when I made them they started seeing how many trees and stuff they could tear up so out I went when I caught them and popped them each on the leg with the peach switch.(wasn't going to hurt my hand, which I had done many times with my children) Well if you haven't been popped with a peach switch feel lucky because it sure does sting. First and only time I had to use it, from there on all I had to do was say I was going to use it. I dared my sister to open her mouth. Left them over at my daughter's one day and by the time we got back she had potty trained the 5 year old. Well about a month later I actually began to like the little demons. They suddenly loved what we cooked, they stopped tearing up everything and they would say yes maam, yes sir instead of huh, what etc. I think that's all they were looking for all along. A mother to disipline them and not a mother that wanted to be their age. They left and went back to Texas and they probably went back to their old routine. I haven't seen them since. Do I believe in spankings.. yes sir I do within reason.

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The only time the world beats a path to your door is when you are in the bathroom

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[Serendipity]

Well said, Idnew! Does anyone reading that still not know the difference between discipline and child abuse? Are those nieces of Id's traumatised? Wrapping kids up in cotton wool is no way to teach them good citizenship.

As is completely obvious, I am new here. I must congratulate all of you on great, sometimes intense, but always insightful, conversation. It is a relief to see that disagreements sometimes are in fact debated without name-calling! I do not agree with everything I read here, but unlike Buzz, I will be back to read the impressive opinions given here.
BTW- I have two wonderful children (G7 G5) and have learned that with the eldest, spanking is not necesary at all. A verbal warning, or sometimes just a look, will make her realize what she is doing and what I think of it. The youngest is totally different. I do need to spank her on occasion. And you know what? Spanking works. It has since biblical times. More often than not I can simply tell either child that what they are about to do, or have done, is not acceptable and that is that.
Enough of my rambling- back to reading.

[paulgro]

Welcome to the board! If we all agreed on everything, there would be nothing to talk about...

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The Tired Coffee Man

[Serendipity]

Welcome Gootch, and most welcome cuz you speak sense http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif. Feel free to pop down to Everything Else: there we talk nonsense!

[Serendipity]

BTW, Paul..... Yes there would! http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif

[~wildangel~]

yeah come visit us at Everything else http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/wink.gif

Just watch out for paulgro's monsters!There on the loose everywere! http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/tongue.gif http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/tongue.gif http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/tongue.gif http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/tongue.gif

[paulgro]

You're not suppose to talk about the monsters!! http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/eek.gif

Dippy, there might be something to talk about, but it would be boring.

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The Tired Coffee Man

[Idnew]

Well said gootch. Congrats on having one reasonable child. I have one girl I could do that way. I don't remember ever spanking her but maybe once. My son got the most. Usually talking or a stern worked after that. BTW my nephews I did try reasoning with, hugs, bribery nothing worked. So I call it tough love what I finally had to do. I'm afraid my sisters never did get it. http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/frown.gif

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The only time the world beats a path to your door is when you are in the bathroom

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[Lis]

Hi Gottch!....well yes, MOST of us speak sense...hope ya stick around http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif

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Even cool people look stupid when they step on prickles.

This definately goes hand in hand with many things I've said out here before! To make a post that would take about 5 hours for everyone to read!, short, I certainly do not agree with the "Take Jonny out to the woodshed with Pa's razor strap." way of thinking!-I don't know how in the world anyone could've ever "justified" that! However, a swat or 2 on the bottom is NOT going to hurt the kid! (That's the way we (3) were raised, and none of us have mile long criminal records, if you will.) Today, you can't even LOOK at your kid wrong for crying out loud! My mother's aunt told me of a time not too long ago when a kid was caught out late at night by a cop, was taken home, and his father gave the kid a LIGHT swat to get his attention. The cop then looked at the man and said "Sir, you're under arrest for assault." I almost fell off my chair when I heard this! HELLOOOOOOOO politicians wake up!!!!!!!

Wow, sounds like everyone has an opinion on this one, so I might as well add my 2 cents. I have 4 kids, B13, G11, G10, B5. I have very well behaved kids who are a pleasure to be around. My wife and I are old fashioned conservatives when it comes to raising children. I can count the number of times I have spanked my children (total) on one hand and still have fingers left over. That said, I have a primary responsibility to be an effective parent to these kids. I will do whatever is necessary to provide a comfortable home life for them, to protect them, to raise them properly to be assets to the community, and that includes discipline. The last time I spanked one of them, the youngest wasn't born yet. I am glad that I haven't had to do that in a very long time. I don't like to do that at all. However, they know that if the day comes when it has to be done, it will be done. They know who is in charge in the house, and they know that if they challenge my authority, I will take it as far as they are willing to go. If talking to them quietly works, great. If I have to yell, then I do that. If they want to escalate the issue with me, I will not back down. That is where so many parents fail--they give up. Then the kids stop listening to the parents because they have learned that they don't HAVE to listen to the parents. The parents have weaker wills than the children. Then the kids run the house. I've seen it and it makes me sick. Those are the parents who have all the trouble with their kids, and the kids don't know how to handle the word "NO", and we all know what these kids are like in public. My kids know it's a losing battle, so they don't usually fight with me or my wife. Instead, they listen and do what they are told (usually). They are kids, after all.
I think that the government has absolutely no business telling me how to raise children until they show me that they can do it better. Let's see, Charlie Manson was basically raised by the government and I just read that Dr Spock's son had committed suicide. So much for the "experts".
If any of my kids threatens me with that running to the government crap, I'll tell him (or her) the door only swings one way, so think hard. Make them live with the decision, and they will think about it. If they think someone else can raise them better, so be it. I only want what's best for them.
The difference between corporal punishment and abuse is this--abuse is hitting (or punishing, etc.) a kid (or anyone) when they have done nothing wrong. That is not acceptable. However, I have no problem using some physical punishment as a measured means of response to bad behavior if lesser means of creating change are ineffective.
As an example, it is not acceptable to kill a person walking down the street, but I hope they cut Bin Laden to bits.
OK, I think I'm done. Hey, with 4 kids, I've been through alot.

[Idnew]

Well said Dis. My mom had six of us and I had two and my ex-husband had three and we had one(4 boys 2 girls) and we had all six of them so I know where your coming from. They kept us on our toes.

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[DV8]

Hello Erich

I would have to agree and understand what you are saying (only to a certain extent as I'm only 15 and would b illegal to claim possession of my own child). This law is a little like Speeding Tickets. Police hide to catch you out. Why don't they just stand around showing they are around so you'd slow down and therefore less speeding (around that area of the road).It's all for the money.

Maybe not Mr Spock, but there are actually people out there who care. If the child abuse law is taken away, what is there stopping ppl abusing children. How do you differenciate and judge fairly/give punishment accordingly between an adult who pushes the child down some steps-breaking the child's arm-on purpose and an adult who smacks the child on the hand?

Surely hundreds of children around this world at this present minute, who are living in countries that enforce this law, are being smacked for doing an act against the parents' will. How many of those children call childline? I don't.

If you have brought your child up well, one of the things they have to respect is what is right and wrong. In many cases children take their punishment as part of their learning and accept. I personally think a child(aged) who is hit knows why, even if they act as if they don't due to stubborness.

The parent who carries out punishment MUST make it clear to the child WHY they are being punished, if not, this parent is not just.

I could ramble on for ages. Sorry.

PS> I disapprove of spanking. Slapping the back of the hand has the same shocking effect to a 4 yo.
PPS>Quote by Buzz: I don't care what they've done. Striking children only shows a lack of ability to deal with things in a more intelligent and adult manner.
Ouch, believe it or not, not all parents have the physical and mental abilities to do this.Do tell us a universal(user friendly) way of 'dealing with things'. Not all parents are intellegent and that's prolly one of the reasons they ARE parents & not all parents are adults either.

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I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it.
We've already hunted the grey whale into extinction twice. - Andrea Arnold (1990)

I am fuming!I have just read, sorry bout the essay, Buzz's thread. I can take it into bits and argue my point till kingdom come. I know every1 has opinions and are free to express but I do like a bit of a debate...

[This message has been edited by DV8 (edited December 26, 2001).]

[DV8]

If you have a chance and ability to bring your child up well, for God's sake grab it! Don't neglect it. I know your child could be influenced in many ways like school&friends but try your best. This will benifit you in the future (Hard work benifits you in the future but laziness may benifit you now http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/tongue.gif ).

A well brought up child will understand and accept and respect the parent, therefore will not go through lengths of calling childline after being eg smacked on the hand, as they know childline has better, more important things to deal with (actual children who need help).

After all aren't parent's supposed to be a bit more educated than their children? Parents aren't supposed to be anything. I ponder when the government will make the outrageous law of banning certain ppl from having children?

Loadsa ppl who hit their children do it on a natural, incidental complusion.I know many times I have personally had a strong urge to knock some1 out.I don't know how parents can cope with their child, must be some kinda love thing stopping them from just getting a gun and shooting their child's heads off. I have 2 bros; 3 + 6 yo. Ooo if only bazookas were legal!!!

[~wildangel~]

LOL DV8 http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Soo funny you mention wanting to kill your brothers sometimes, you have 2, I have 4!!! http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/eek.gif Oh believe me I can get very impatient with them even now with the young ones their 12 and 14 and still fight all the time! http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif Lord knows when they will ever learn!

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[bi-blonde]

I have a story that i shared in a Yahoo club, and I will tell it here, along with some of the responses that I got from the other club members. Short version:

I was babysitting a friend's 2 children ages 2 and 4. Right after lunch I laid them down for a nap and finally got to take my shower. I was showering for maybe 15 minutes, got out, dressed, and walked into the kitchen to find the kids had snuck out of their room, dug all the food out of the fridge, smeared dark stains all in the carpet, cut open Lipton teabags and loose tea was embedded in the carpet. I threw the 2 yr old in the bathtub and asked the 4 yr old what happened (and this child lies alot and blames her little brother for it) I asked her 3 times to tell me the truth "Who made the mess" and all 3 times she lied to me. I warned her that if she did lie, she would get a spanking and she got one. I had her stand in the corner for half an hour, then made her clean up the mess.
After all was said and done, the 4 yr old has never been a problem since (at least to me)

Now the responses I got from the other club members:

"You should have taken the kids into the shower with you so that you could have watched them"

"Instead of spanking her, you should have swept up all the tea and sat down and had a tea party"

"You should have just cleaned the mess up yourself and let the children be because you must be lazy and didn't want to clean up their mess"


Oh and I might add that one of the club members that made one of these comments is allowing his 14 yr old daughter date a 52 yr old man...

[TAHUTI]

Originally posted by Coca:
My views and opinions will almost certainly change, that is unquestionable. But spanking a child is assault plain and simple. I don't punch people in the face when they do things that I think are wrong. If I did, I wouldn't be here writing my post.

You are obviously a product (or should I say victim?) of the politically-correct psychobabbling late eighties and nineties, and public school system.

I have a child your age (17), whom I have somehow managed to bring up with a clearer vision and a more open mind than you could ever imagine, even though you two are the same age. My kid hates the psychobabbling, the "other-people's-kids-are everybody's-business" mentality, the political correctness as much as most older people do. And he was never disciplined (beaten) or anything like that the "old-fashioned" way. I am a very open-minded, equality-minded mom. But I can also distinguish between an adult and a kid. Adults should be in charge. Adults have more rights than kids (or at least should), whether this is politically correct or not.

And....grrrrrrrrrr regarding the post about instructing store clerks to report their customers to the authorities for disciplining their own children. (?!) What does the store get out of this anyway?? It's not as though they are "required by law" to report (as teachers and doctors are). Is it just a way to make lowly clerks in mind-numbing jobs feel important? I see a lot of potential for abuse (no pun intended) here. And not to mention an excellent way to drive away potential customers.

[MacReady]

Also law on pets, even on dogs. If a dog did something bad maybe bite someone and I spank or slap it, someone see that and call it animal abuse. Police would charge me, fine or arrest me then have to go court for abusing animal. If I dont spank or slap that dog for biting someone, I still get trouble cuz I am owner and they can sue me and court file charge against me. The reason America have so much laws so they can make money out of it. Cant win in America and cant live life the way you want unless you pay more money for it. So idea of law protect children is ok but adding more silly or obtuse laws to increase profits making children and parents relationship worse even if those laws really doesnt protect children plus damage children's learning process on displicine then those children grow up getting in more trouble in future then yet again, law have the advantage of staying in business.

[This message has been edited by MacReady (edited January 12, 2002).]