Blow Em' Up!

[aclu14]

Another Time Magazine quote, this time Beth Gray of Los Angeles:
While I understand something of the government's caution, I am impatient for us to act. We must relatiate. This country cannot afford to show any weakness or indecision. The borders should be closed and troops stationed at them. We must vigilantly patrol our coasts and airspace until further notice. As far as I'm concerned, we should already be bombing Iraq, Libya, and Afghanistan until there is nothing left but rubble-filled craters.

What do you think?

[Serendipity]

IMHO:

Beth Gray claims to understand something of the government's caution. She certainly doesn't show it! I find this quote a typical knee-jerk reaction.

A policy of 'Shoot first, ask questions later' is completely inapplicable to the current situation. It is not symptomatic of indecision or weakness to deliberate for as long as it takes over what is the most appropriate course of action to take. It is vital that the US and her allies do the right thing.

Certainly the US should adopt extra internal security measures, but Ms Gray sounds panicked: what she suggests is simply closing the stable door after the horse has bolted. The terrorists don't need to strike now, they've done what they were going to do. The fear and paranoia that Ms Gray displays is all part of their plan and contributes to their success. Closing US borders means closing them to friends and allies as well as to enemies. Bush is already showing signs of being the most isolationist President in modern times, does America really want to sever all links with the rest of the world?

As for bombing Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan to bits, what possible good would that do? It would certainly increase instability in the area and very probably precipitate a much wider conflict. I think what she says is dangerous and stupid. There are innocent men, women and children in all these places, their corpses would fill the craters too; why should they be killed because of the actions of a (very) few warped fanatics?

[paulgro]

Weakness would be to blow up countries that had nothing to do with this. You take your time know the facts then react.....

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[~wildangel~]

Aclu I wanna see these jerks suffer just as much as you do! But if we don't plan everything out just right we will lose more of our good men and they might win. Everything is better planned out. I keep telling Jesse this, he thinks we should already have blown the country off the map, but he's just mad ofcourse. I think if everything is planned just right it will come out just right. I beleive THEY might have already had time to plan their attacks and us Americans were not expecting this so we definatly need a plan! JMO http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/wink.gif
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[Neppy]

Part of the prob is that there is no country to "blow off the map". I don't think most people understand that we are fighting several different groups who may or may not belong to a single cause. Some are and some aren't Taliban. The Taliban are probably responsible for this but that doesn't mean we go to a country and blow it up. We have to seek out the INDIVIDUALS who did this and punish them. Then we can go after other groups who threaten the US or any other country.
We are not fighting a country, we are fighting a group. Though Bin Laden may be hiding out in one country we can't kill innocent people just to get one guy or even twenty of them. He has people in many places throughout the world. He even had one here in Oklahoma training at a flight school in Norman. Does that mean we have to blow up Norman, OK? We go after the !%!%!%!%!%!%!%s and bring them to justice. No one will get away. They've accepted this and will fight us when we come after them, but we will get them.

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[Serendipity]

Well said, Neppy. America, albeit passively, is a country that has been harbouring terrorists: Nuke America!! http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/biggrin.gif. I am, of course, kidding, but you take the point.

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[cleoeo]

Some assumptions on my part:

Bin Laden organized the atrocity from his hideout in Afganistan. He did not act without the Taliban's OK, or they would be shooting him right about now for causing such terrible risks to their regime. The Taliban will not hand over anyone who will implicate them. The Taliban is the enemy.

[amr]

While I can't support wholesale murder of innocent victims (we would then be no better than the terroists), I wholly support going after and publicly executing those who organized and ordered the attacks.

My current favorite punishment would be to have Bin Ladin and cohorts drawn and quartered in Yankee Stadium with live TV coverage. A tape of that should then run on continous play at whatever memorial or building stands at the WTC site as a reminder to anyone even thinking about doing something like it again.

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[This message has been edited by amr (edited September 24, 2001).]

[Serendipity]

Hmm. The people who actually carried out the attack lost their lives, and they're certainly not the first suicide attackers - remember the Kamikaze. Therefore we can say that they value their cause above their lives. Public execution of the perpetrators would turn them into martyrs, and causes love martyrs - this would feed into their hands, they wouldn't care a fig about the warning message.

What the terrorists did on 9-11 is beyond the comrprehension of a great many Americans, and a lot of other peoples too. It was an inconceivable act, the minds of the terrorists have thoughts that are completely alien to the Western way of thinking. But in order to vanquish an enemy, the first thing you must do is understand that enemy, however unpalatable this may seem. In order to do that, you must adopt an objective viewpoint, and it is quite understandable why Americans in particular find this hard to do. From this viewpoint, assess the situation. Here's what I think:

What a lot of Americans believe is that this is a battle between Good and Evil, Bush himself has said so. I find this a Hollywood-esque interpretation of the situation. It is a battle between ideologies and cultures, liberal capitalist democracy on the one hand, fascistic religious fundamentalism on the other. Of course I side with the former, that's the culture in which I grew up and feel comfortable. But In Osama bin Laden's eyes (if he is indeed responsible for the attack, as seems likely), Allah is smiling broadly on him and his followers - his side is good, and America is evil. And, according to his wisdom (twisted, IMO) and his priorities, he is right.

In order to prevent this kind of thing happening in the future, the kind of deterrent you suggest will be completely ineffective, Amr - look at how the Taliban treat ordinary Afghani people, they kill women for disobeying even slightly their interpretation of Shuria Law. The task at hand is HUGE: to change/eradicate a whole mode of thought, one with a strong sense of pride and self-righteouness. It will take more than a few thousand bullets and bombs or public executions to do that.

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[This message has been edited by Serendipity (edited September 24, 2001).]

[amr]

I know it would be ineffective, but it's satifying to imagine anyway...

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When the night has come/ and the land is dark/ and the moon is the only light we'll see/ no I won't be afraid/ just as long as you stand by me
--Ben E. King

[Serendipity]

Ah, but that's different. http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif

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[cleoeo]

The Taliban represent a tiny fraction of the Afgan population. They do, however, run the show right now. They are determined, fearless, cunning, and ruthless. Bombing the Middle East into a smoking ruin would only further their cause. They rose to power in the first place because the Soviets destroyed the rest of the country's infrastructure.

[Serendipity]

Osama bin Laden is more powerful than the Taliban, though. The Taliban won't hand him over because he simply doesn't want to be handed over, he keeps the Taliban in place. Running a country like Afghanistan is not about who best represents the public will, it's about who has the guns. Targetting Bin Laden is therefore nore important than targetting the Taliban - if he goes, they will follow.

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[aclu14]

Well said, Dips. The Taliban backs bin laden, and when they say the !%!%!%!%!%!%!% is MISSING, I say, bullsh*t! They're covering up for him.

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[Serendipity]

No, bin Laden backs the Taliban. Can I urge you please not to underestimate bin Laden? The CIA backed him at one point. Mad he may be, but stupid? Not a bit of it. And before the mighty American Eagle can crush him, first they've got to find him.

As I write, the Taliban are press-ganging young men in Kabul to join to defend Afghanistan. People are fleeing Afghanistan by droves, landing in ramshackle refugee camps. This whole thing is a sorry mess already, and soon will become a humanitarian disaster.

[Idnew]

I agree with you dippy. Now their saying he's left Taliban. That's BS also and we all know it. With some of the things I've been hearing that they say they must really think America and the rest of the world is stupid. Just can't even begin to imagine how this will end. The news is also saying that some of the hijackers probably didn't even know they were fixing to crash into buildings, just thought they we're hijacking a plane.

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[Serendipity]

Quite possibly, Idnew.

I've heard that one of the WTC crash pilot's passports was found among the rubble. What's the chance of a passport, made of paper, surviving that inferno? The car found at Boston with the Koran in it? It's a sin, according to Shuria Law, not to carry it with you at all times. The Arabic flight manual in the same car? You don't learn to fly a plane in the back of a car. I don't like the way the evidence fits the suspect, it seems too darn unlikely. Don't like it.

[Idnew]

Things are sure looking mighty funny aren't they? Guess they think everybody is stupid and doesn't pay attention to what they are telling us.

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[Serendipity]

Remember JFK?

I'm not saying that Bin Laden is not involved, of course, nor that's he's innocent of other crimes, both against the US and against humanity. It seems to me, however, that the evidence is being construed to fit the conclusion that 'we' want.

The other big problem I have with the whole Bin Laden thing is that he is being presumed guilty, and if the armed forces that are gathering around Afghanistan have their way, will be executed without trial. While no justice system is perfect, presumption of innocence is one of the cornerstones of western justice, until guilt is proven. Are we going to let our own prejudice undermine this most valuable and noble of principles? If so, then our enemies have already won.

I don't like Bin Laden one little bit, I don't sympathise with his cause, I think he's a monster. That's not to say that I think he should not have the same right to a fair trial as anyone else. Otherwise all we are saying is "All men are equal, unless we really don't like you".

Boy! Imagine being his defence lawyer...

[paulgro]

For the record there have been car accidents where groceries that were in the trunk of a car were found on top of the engineof the car. Can a passport go through an explosion and stay in tact? Why not. Is it true they found one and it be longed to a highjacker, I don't know.....

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[Idnew]

I noticed that they had him already guilty hours after the attack. Guess cause they know he's responsible for the USS Cole and the prior bombing of WTC. I do hope they are absoutly right before they go bombing anybody.

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[paulgro]

The Taliban now says they know where he is. All they have to do is turn him over and they won't be bombed....

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[Serendipity]

If any bombing does go on, I hope they steer clear of the big citites. The only people left in them are those who cannot afford to flee. The humanitarian disaster is happening. http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/frown.gif

[cleoeo]

There are no big cities or anything else in Afganistan. Mountains and refugees. That's it.

[~wildangel~]

Is their anything out there but deserts? http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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[Serendipity]

My atlas says that Kabul and nearby Jalalabad both have populations of between 1 and 5 million. Those who can afford it have left. I would not like to speculate about the numbers who cannot afford it. The average Afghani is not rich.