Exaggerated

[Sjax]

Now, I know that this post might seem a bit provocative to some of you so let me start by saying that I still think it is an extremely tragic thing that wtc and pentagon was attacked. But...
I must say that I think the reaction seems a bit exaggerated.
Ok. I understand that it is a very big chock for the americans, since it was their country that got attacked, but I think there is too much of a reaction in Europe (or in Denmark anyway) The attack is still headlines in newspapers and in tv, there is still memorials etc. even though it haappened almost 3 weeks ago.

About 5000 innocent people died as a result of the attack. That is many but not compared to have many innocent people died in the earthquakes in India and Turkey some years ago (40.000 and 25.000 respectively) or how many innocent people have died in wars around the world in the recent years. And many of these kills is USA responsible for: in Serbia, Iraq, Vietnam etc. (not that this would justify the attack on WTC and pentagon of course).
But these tragedies havent got our attention.
Is american lives worth more than those of India, Turkey, Iraq etc??

PS. Dont hate me for this...

[Idnew]

No reason to hate you Sjax your just stating your opinion. Where are you located?

This isn't just about America after all it was the World TC that got attacked. That affects everyone in the world. This is about terriosim not just against us but against everyone from all over. Earthquakes are an act of whatever. They are not delebratly caused by any one person or group. These tragedies were deliberate and fully planned, just like anyone planning to murder an individual and should be punished as such.

[paulgro]

Those events you mention did get attention through media and charities. You can't compare a natural disaster or a war with a terrorist attack. It's just not the same thing. Like Idnew says many nations had people working in those buildings, that made it an attack on the world not just America...

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[Midnight77]

Let's see... I suppose Hiroshima and Nagasaki were just military sites that suffered some unfortunate collateral damage?

[amr]

I agree with Sjax about the media coverage. It's getting to the point where the media is terrorizing us more than Bin Ladin. (Let's pour some salt on the wounds and show that plane crashing into the second tower a few dozen more times...)

The main thing you must understand about the US is that outside of the Revolutionary War and Pearl Harbor (and maybe the War of 1812), the US has never been attacked by a foriegn enemy on our own soil. I'll be the first to admit that Americans have had it soft for a long time. The combination of suprise, massive civillian casualties, and the sheer scope of the distruction has left us reeling.

While the main shock is passing, we still have to deal with very real and on-going side effects: a falling stock market (and the economy was aleady shaky before this), a shattered airline industry that may not recover, the fear of chemical/biological or other attacks, and the prospect of unprecidented limits on personal freedoms for security's sake.

Like it or not, these issues will continue to dominate Americans' attention in the forseeable future.

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[aclu14]

Okay, Sjax, I got a bone to pick with you. What did the USA do to get bin laden so dead set against us? "Retaliation" means to our government, "Don't you dare get us pissed off again." The Japanese learned their lesson, didn't they? And now every other business man or woman has an overseas co-worker who's Japanese. Many of the people killed in the World Trade Center were Japanese.
The European reaction to this whole thing is quite understandable to me, because the most powerful country in the world was just attacked by a handful of madmen. When headline news shows only reports and updates about the terrorism, it's because the media is finally embracing something important.
One of my friends took the ferry into New York City with her family to see a Yankees game over the weekend. She came back shaking with fear. Seeing just the new NYC skyline, she said, is enough to move anyone to tears. I've never seen her like that, and she is normally a very strong person. There is no normal anymore. I myself am scared over this. The bigness of the terrorism didn't hit me until I went to bed that night. I just felt so paranoid and confused, I tossed and turned for hours until falling asleep. Then I was at the mercy of nightmares full of planes crashing right and left.
Exaggeration? I think not. Earthquakes? Not our fault(our country in fact sent the most relief aid). Vietnam? Stupid decision, stupid war. Persian Gulf War? Well worth our time - Saddam(backwards is Mad Ass) Hussein was shorthanded 100,000 men in exchange for 150ish. We have the power for a massive retaliation. Japan: we traded a naval base for 2 cities. Iraq pissed off an ally of ours, they got the consequences. Now this is on a much greater scale, and we're set to trade those buildings for the end of terrorism, the end of the Taliban, and a freed Afghanistan.

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[~wildangel~]

Well for you to say this attack is the same thing as an earthquake I have to disagree. A natural disaster would be one thing but an attack on an entire country is an ongoing thing, an ongoing disaster, this means war.

When Titanic sank people talked about it for centurys and still do, have movies about it ect. and about 1,500 people died in the north Atlantic, which is not America. It would not matter what country an atack this herendous occured, it would be HUGE!

More people died in this terrorist attack than died on the sinking of Titanic and this was done feircly, the buildings did'nt just fall killing thousands! The thousands that were killed in the WTC were from other countrys also, many from Brittain ect.

Ofcourse we don't hate you everyone has their right to their opinions but in my opinion this horrifying incident deserves much attention! We also are terified over here of more attacks and that can't just end because it is not over yet!

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[Sjax]

First To Idnew: I am located in Denmark. I dont blame you if you dont know where it is because it is quite a small country with about 5 million inhabitants, but it is located in Scandinavia just north of Germany.
You all have some good points about the WORLD t c beeing attacked (this morning i learned that the airline Swiss-air had to close some of their company as aa result of the terror) and about this being different to earthquakes because it is made by human beings.
But I cant agree with aclu 14 when you justify the attacks on Iraq with the fact that they attacked one of your allies (Kuwait who is an ally because they deliver cheap oil).
How can that jusify the hundred of thousands of innocent people (children) who died by the american (and british) bombs??

all that i have to say is this...

DON'T GET ME STARTED

[Serendipity]

Welcome to Dumb Laws, Flutterby http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif

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I know this might make some people mad, but think about it guys, how can we prevent civilian casualties in war? Unless you want to get 10-100 times more of our own troops killed in action, civilian casualties are inevitable. Despite the NATO nations using precision bombing techniques which increased the difficulty of missions, cost more money, and saved many innocent Iraqis, people still complain...

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[aclu14]

Thank you, Jeff.
What the terrorists, not the US government, believe in is "total war", defined as civilians being as much an opponent/target as heavily armed troops.

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God may have mercy on the terrorists, but we won't. --Sen. John McCain

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[Serendipity]

At the time of WWI, many more soldiers were killed in war than civilians. That has now reversed, you are much more likely to be killed as a civilian in a warzone than a soldier.

If the US/NATO goes to war on Afghanistan, I don't see any difference between the inevitable civilian deaths there and those at the WTC - if you can see a difference, please explain it. Those Afghanis don't support their government - which was put in place with US assistance - and despise Osama bin Laden. Just because these deaths are inevitable, that doesn't make it right or morally acceptable. In fact, I think it's worse - the terrorists (according to their logic) were attacking their enemy, and scored a bull's-eye. NATO knows that the average Afghani is innocent. There's a principle applied to the death penalty, "Better a hundred guilty men live than one innocent man die," that's gone out of the window, it seems.

[Idnew]

Welcome Flutterby. http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif We don't care if you do want to get started though.

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[Idnew]

Thank you Sjax. Yes I know where Denmark is.




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[Sjax]

I totally agree with Serendipity. It is always a tragedy when there is civilian losses in war (war itself is a tragedy), but I ddont think it is more tragic because the victims for once were american.
What happened september 11th was a disaster, but lets face it: disasters happen every day.
What those terrorists did was an act of war, and people die in wars.

[paulgro]

You seem to forget, everyone in those buildings weren't americans. Why else do you think most of the world is standing beside us. If they hit the White House and nothing else the world would have said oh well.....

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[Sjax]

I know that people of many nationalities was killed in the attack, but I think you are wrong.
I am sure that the reaction from any western european country would have been the same if the white house were attacked.
No danes were killed in the attack and yet the reaction was as I have written above.

sjax why must u say such things, my mother is german...and even she doesnt think like u do...u amy think that it is being exaggerated but if it happened in denmark we would still cover it just as we are right now...and yes i know where denmark is... http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif
p.s. u are entitled to ur own opinion though http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif

[Sjax]

Dear Flutterby.
The last thing I want is to make people angry or sad with my opinion, and i am very sorry if i have hurt you by speaking it out.
My point is that it is a cruel world we live in . Many peoplee die every day as the result of different kinds of violence. That is unfortunately the way it is. As late as tonight I heard that a russian plane has crashed, possibly because og another terrorattack.
I do not say that this is OK. I, of corse think that this is terrible, but if I should be sad everytime things like that happened, I would never be happy.
My point then is: Why should it be more terrible for me that 5000 americans die than when 5000 iraqis or people of other nationalities die. Both things are terrible, but the reaction here in Denmark has been so much bigger to these 5000 americans than it is to the hundreds of thousands people of Iraq (civilians) who have lost their lives as a result of the Gulfwar (just an examble).
Why does some human lives appear to be more valuable than others?

Wow, it is harder than I thought to express my thoughts in my secondary language, but I hope that was understandable.

[Serendipity]

Sjax, all of us here appreciate the efforts made here by people whose first language is not English. http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif

I agree that the lives of citizens of one nation are not intrinsically worth more that the lives of citizens of any other nation. All I can say is that if you are over the shock - nobody will deny that this attack was shocking - then fine, I am too. But let others deal with it in whatever way suits them.

There's a lot of talk about the world changing. American internal security arrangements may change, and airlines and insurance companies are suffering. But has the world changed? Mine hasn't. I still love my friends and family, I still need to eat, I still want to laugh and joke with my friends. Pretty much everything has stayed the same for me, although I know that's not true of those directly affected, who have my sympathy.

This war could very well be the start of WORLD War III. When an earthquake kills someone, or two countries fight out a war they've been fighting for ages, it's not going to concern the whole world. When WW3 is imminent, I think everyone else is going to give a flip.

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Perfect.

[Sjax]

First to Serendipity:
You are probably right about some people still being in shock about the tragedy. Maybe I should have been more considerate.
To Perfect: This is NOT going to bee the start of world war III for one simple reason: this is the world versus terrorism.
If world war III was going to break out it would probably be Nato on one side and China or the arab world on the other.
The situation now is that as well China and the official Arab world support USA and NATO.

[ogb]

Well, I didn't read all the discussion. I just want to add my opinion to the basic statement:
It was an attack on the civilised western culture including Europe. Of course our lives aren't worth more than other peoples lives, but it affects us more. And this is only natural. If you wanted to look at all the catastrophes in the world, you'd have to weep every day and night. In fact nobody does it and nobody can do it.
You could say that all cultures are equal (and I guess that this is what you wanted to stress), but this is not the case. If you have this opinion, you put your own culture on the same level as other cultures and say it is only one of many. But I am saying that our civilisation is the best of all. It is no wonder and has its reasons that the North American/European way of life became standard in the leading nations. It is nothing we have to be ashamed of.

[Idnew]

Sjax To Perfect: This is NOT going to bee the start of world war III for one simple reason: this is the world versus terrorism.

Now you got it and why it's still in the news.


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[Sjax]

Good point...

[Phreakmeister]

Originally posted by Idnew:
This isn't just about America after all it was the World TC that got attacked.

Actually: No. It was the WTC in New York City that got attacked. And the complex may be called WTC, but what's in a name? (If a rose wore a different name, she would still smell as sweet)
If they would have flown it into a building named after our mayor, does that mean that they've attacked our mayor?


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[This message has been edited by Phreakmeister (edited February 04, 2002).]

[ogb]

Originally posted by Phreakmeister:
Actually: No. It was the WTC in New York City that got attacked. And the complex may be called WTC, but what's in a name?


The WTC didn't only include American companies, there were lots of firms from all over the world, e.g. several German banks in there. You can't deny that the American way of life is close to the European one, that is a basic reason why it affects us as well. It simply showed how vulnerable our world is. In the 90s we were living without any danger in a peaceful world, but for the first time after the Cold War we are threatened again - and this not by an incident that can happen or has to happen to mean people or a country with bad politics, but by an evil terrorist attack. If this attack wasn't the sign to do something agains the worldwide terrorism, then I don't know what has to happen to open some governments' eyes.

[This message has been edited by ogb (edited February 05, 2002).]

[Phreakmeister]

I know. There were several Dutch people among the victims as well. There were I think 3 or 4 Dutch companies that had offices there (I know about ABN Amro, ING, Philips).

But let's take a look at the hijackers for one second (I'm not trying to defend them or anything). They were all from rich families (upper middle class or lower aristocracy). Several of the hijackers went to christian elementary schools. A lot of the hijackers studied in Europe. They were absolutely not dumb.
I'm not saying that the American people are guilty of what happened, but if even these people, with such a background get to hate the US enough to do something this horrible, then there must be something horribly wrong.

In order for world peace to come, change must not come from one side. It must come from all sides.

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[ogb]

Originally posted by Phreakmeister:


But let's take a look at the hijackers for one second (I'm not trying to defend them or anything). They were all from rich families (upper middle class or lower aristocracy). Several of the hijackers went to christian elementary schools. A lot of the hijackers studied in Europe. They were absolutely not dumb.


That's the scaring part of it and btw is speaking against all the theories that terrorism finds its basic in poverty. The hijackers were that religiously fanatic that they even were willing to die for "the good purpose".

[Phreakmeister]

That is indeed against all the theories. Because terrorism doesn't find its root in poverty. Terrorism finds its root in hatred. Saying it comes from poverty, is a wonderful way for the Bush administration, and all the administrations before it, to wash their hands in innocence over the injustice which is inflicted on the Palestinians day after day after day.

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