EU constitution summit 'may fail'

[DEAD ZONE]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3298441.stm

Germany and Italy have warned that a European Union summit next week may not agree a new EU constitution.

Unchanged position

Germany and France, which together account for one-third of the bloc's population want the voting system to reflect their size.

But Spain and Poland fear domination by the bigger countries and have been fighting a fierce battle to hold on to a voting system agreed three years ago at the Nice summit.


This sounds more and more like the colonists fight over our constitution

[DEAD ZONE]

http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/12/09/weu09.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/12/09/ixworld.html/news/2003/12/09/weu09.xml

Less than half the population in the European Union's member states now support the EU project, according to polling results yesterday.

The latest Eurobarometer to be released this week found that just 48 per cent of EU citizens viewed membership as a "good thing", down from 54 per cent last spring.

[Serendipity]

There's no comparison between the US Constitution and the European one, DZ. The US was a very new nation in the late 18th century, whereas Europe is very old and therefore has a lot of history - and some very stupid bureaucrats. I doubt we shall ever make a sensible thing out of the EU, but at least trade is good and we're not slaughtering each other so much these days.

[DEAD ZONE]

Originally posted by Serendipity
There's no comparison between the US Constitution and the European one, DZ. The US was a very new nation in the late 18th century, whereas Europe is very old and therefore has a lot of history - and some very stupid bureaucrats. I doubt we shall ever make a sensible thing out of the EU, but at least trade is good and we're not slaughtering each other so much these days. I am surprised at your simpleton approach. Europe has never been a nation either. That’s what they are trying to do. It’s going to be even newer. Those over here were a part of old Europe just a bit farther away. The comparisons are darn close.

You all don’t have the capacity to slaughter anyone anymore.

http://news.myway.com/top/article/id/79306|top|12-12-2003::10:24|reuters.html

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - The European Union's landmark summit to agree a first constitution was plunged into gloom almost as soon as it began Friday as leaders stood their ground in a bitter battle over their nations' voting rights.

A last-ditch meeting between British Prime Minister Tony Blair, French President Jacques Chirac and German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder to seek a way out of the impasse brought "no breakthrough, no real movement," diplomats said.

"The positions are a long, long way apart," Blair told reporters. "It is important to try and get an agreement. It may well not be possible."

Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, who as EU president for the past six months has struggled to steer the 25 bickering present and future member states to agreement on the historic draft treaty, conceded that the deadlock over power stakes in an enlarged union could sink the whole project.

Hay guys!! You have the perfect model already. Hint Hint.:lol

[Serendipity]

Perhaps many Europeans don't have the will to slaughter any more? Given that we Euros have been slaying each other for centuries - and that we regard ourselves as civilised!! - this attempt to bring about unity among the European peoples is not a bad thing per se. I'd sooner waste millions of €€ than millions of lives.

I've not anything much good about the EU Constitution. No We, the People... or anything half so noble.

We're trying to give the impression that we're not aiming for a United States of Europe, or a European Federation - all nations want to retain sovereignty. How are we doing?

[DEAD ZONE]

not real good.

[sinecure]

Attempting to consolidate Europe's governments is like trying to herd cats. :question :wave

[weldordave]

Originally posted by Serendipity
There's no comparison between the US Constitution and the European one, DZ. The US was a very new nation in the late 18th century, whereas Europe is very old and therefore has a lot of history - and some very stupid bureaucrats. I doubt we shall ever make a sensible thing out of the EU, but at least trade is good and we're not slaughtering each other so much these days.
:lol :lol :lol Not yet, but as history demonstrates.............
Don't call us, we'll call you. Do you speak Polish? Might want to pick it up.:lol :lol

[weldordave]

EU a complete failure. Gee, who saw that coming?:question

[Sjax]

EU is certainly no complete failure. They face a very hard challenge, but no harder than many challenges which have been solved earlier.
I have been EU sceptic most of my life, and I still think there is a lot to be critisised and which should be made better, but I think it is a great idea.

There are very obvious reasons for this failure. The biggest reason is called Silvio Berlusconi. That man is completely incompetent as a politician. He has proved that with his work in Italy, in Europe and in world politics. When the Irish and the Dutch get the post, I am sure everything will be better.

[w1che]

Sjax do you even know why they had to go home without an agreement? It's not as rosie a picture as you seem to be make it out to be.. One thing the EU let France & Germany slide on their debt level.. Now who do you think is trying to take control of the EU and if they have their way will be in control.. There were other issures but I'm not going to get into them all...

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-eu-summit-fallout,0,570799.story?coll=sns-ap-nationworld-headlines

[AWPrime]

The main reason was that Poland and Spain refused a more fair distribution of power.

[Sjax]

Of course I know, W1nche. The main reason had nothing to do with France and Germany, although I know that you blame all the worlds problems on France and Germany. The main problem was that Spain and primarily Poland wouldn't give up any of the priviledges they got in the Nice Treaty 3 years ago (when Poland wasn't even a member). When some countries won't make compromises it is terribly hard to negotiate, and Berlusconi turned out to be too weak for the job.
It is a part of that history that EU have given an amount of money greater than the one of the Marshall Plan to Spain and Portugal, and a similar amount to Poland on earlier occations.

[w1che]

Sjax why should Spain and Poland give up fair representation for their people? In America each state has two Senators no matter how small that state is. If Spain & Poland doesn't stick to what has already been agreed to then wouldn't they be signing over control of their countries to people in other countries with more votes?.. You didn't address France & Germany's special treatment on the debt.. If it were two other countries do you think France & Germany would back them on the debt problem?

[Serendipity]

Wunch, don't tell me that you seriously think that the candidate who gets the most votes should win an election? So Gore should be in the White House? :lol

[w1che]

I thought we were talking about representatives here Sir_Dip.. In that case I do. I believe each country in the EU should have equal say in where the EU is taking them.. Otherwise wouldn't that be the same as the large countries taking over the government of the small countries?

One person one vote is not the law in America when it comes to president.. Not much I can do about that..

[Serendipity]

I believe each country in the EU should have equal say in where the EU is taking them. I actually agree with you, now you put it that way - although what's the verdict on the preference of EU net contributors over net benefactors?

[w1che]

Quote from Sir- Dip...although what's the verdict on the preference of EU net contributors over net benefactors?
>>>>>>>>>
I don't know how you will set up the EU without the richer more populated countries contributing more than the poorer countries like for defence or other things for the common good.. The richer more populous states in America kick in more than the poorer states.. I have to say I'm lost on what your trying to do there if your going to get around that in the long run.. I would guess in time some kind of special tax..

[weldordave]

Originally posted by Serendipity
Wunch, don't tell me that you seriously think that the candidate who gets the most votes should win an election? So Gore should be in the White House? :lol
Gore got more electoral votes? Are you familiar with how the US president is elected? Been so long I forgot what the Electoral count was.

[Serendipity]

Originally posted by weldordave

Gore got more electoral votes? Are you familiar with how the US president is elected? Been so long I forgot what the Electoral count was. Are you familiar with how the US president is elected? If you don't tempt me, I'll not go there! :lol Yes, I have some idea of how the electoral college system (http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa022000a.htm)* works, but Gore won the popular vote.

*From that site: Critics of the Electoral College system, of which there are more than a few, point out that the system allows the possibility of a candidate actually losing the nationwide popular vote, but being elected president by the electoral vote. Can that happen? Yes, and it has.

[w1che]

Dip it's happen two times before Gore in our history & America is still here.. The smaller states will never let that be changed so we're stuck with the system that has worked well for us for over 200 years.. Hell you Brits still have a Queen... :eek:

[sinecure]

It really DOES keep the more populated states from overriding the sparsely-settled ones.... which is why each state has two Senators and Representatives in porportion to their population.

...and yeah, it seems to work well!


...unless you're a crybaby Democrat...:p :wink :lol

[King Solomon]

Originally posted by Serendipity
*From that site: Critics of the Electoral College system, of which there are more than a few, point out that the system allows the possibility of a candidate actually losing the nationwide popular vote, but being elected president by the electoral vote. Can that happen? Yes, and it has.

Which means that Bush was not a "Democratically Elected President"! There goes the one man, one vote theory. Besides, the final recount in Florida showed that, if all the proper votes were counted, Gore would have won the state by just over 500 votes.

[sinecure]

Didn't some long-ago teacher tell me that the USA isn't a "democracy", but rather a "republic"? I seem to recall that.

...yes... "...and to the Republic, for which it stands..." Yeah, I DO remember... :)

Too bad you weren't in that class, KS... You might now understand what went on in 2000 a little better. :wave :wave :lol

[King Solomon]

Originally posted by sinecure
...yes... "...and to the Republic, for which it stands..." Yeah, I DO remember... :)

Kinda like another Republic that once was, Union of Soviet Socialist Republics

[sinecure]

Originally posted by King Solomon


Kinda like another Republic that once was, Union of Soviet Socialist Republics

I'm through with you and your sophomoric attempts to discuss anything.. You get your virtual pixellated hide nailed to the wall over a boneheaded statement you make, and you can't be an adult and concede gracefully. Like a peevish little kid, you then deflect onto another, entirely different, irerelevant subject.

Typical leftie, I guess.

...certainly not like most Masons [32-degree or not] I've met.

Actually, in thinking about it, you are a very troll-like presence here. http://www.kurts-smilies.de/trolls.gif

[w1che]

Awww Sin he doesn't know the difference between a democracy and a republic or he would know that in a pure democracy the majority always rule..

To add a little more flavor.. No recount in FL had Gore over Bush.. Not even the one the liberals papers did.. None..Zip.. Could be one some guy did that has a web page on the net...

[weldordave]

Originally posted by King Solomon


Which means that Bush was not a "Democratically Elected President"! There goes the one man, one vote theory. Besides, the final recount in Florida showed that, if all the proper votes were counted, Gore would have won the state by just over 500 votes.
Florida votes. Florida is populated by a people who love to vote. They love to vote so much that many do it 2 or 3 times on election day. Many times even the dead in Florida vote. Heck, sometimes even pets vote in Florida. So when a foreigner spouts off about votes, popular votes, elections, or anything politically American we know that his/her/its ideas came from one news source. Certainly not a working knowledge of the American political system. For we Americans all know that the politics you read about and that which is practiced are two different concepts. A hard, if not impossible, idea for a foreigner to grasp from the media. The South has had voting credibility problems throughout our history, as well as all other states.I'm not singling out the South. Our founders, being somewhat far-sighted saw this as an issue and followed the electoral system. Not an American invention at all. A concept that was borrowed and works well. Perfect? Not hardly. But far better than anything else when considering all the American political variables. Geopolitical climes can be described as South, North, and Other. You can interchange West with Other whenever you want. Southern politics are different than Northern politics and so forth. I was taught in HS government that every American should run for an elected office at least once in their life. I did, I lost, but learned much about how politics "really works" here in the US. So, again, for a foreigner to be spouting off about their great knowledge of American politics is just plain laughable. And their opinions on elections with popular votes without the consideration that about 15%(yes, that high) of the votes are fraudulent anyway are just that...opinions. And like rectums, everybody has an opinion.

[weldordave]

Originally posted by w1che
Awww Sin he doesn't know the difference between a democracy and a republic or he would know that in a pure democracy the majority always rule..

To add a little more flavor.. No recount in FL had Gore over Bush.. Not even the one the liberals papers did.. None..Zip.. Could be one some guy did that has a web page on the net...
Now wait just a minute! A couple posts ago Dip said Gore won the popular vote. How do you expect me to believe YOU over DIP. Yep, I checked again and DIP(American slang term,BTW) said Gore WON THE POPULAR VOTE.
Credibility at stake here. Wunch says "no", DIP says "yes". Wunch your full of it. DIP has to be right. He knows American politics.

[DEAD ZONE]

The country has been in a chest-thumping mood since last weekend, when Poland and Spain broke up a summit meeting on the new European constitution by refusing to yield to demands by France and Germany that they accept a new, less favorable voting system for the European Union.

"Poland needs to stand up for itself," said Katarzyna Lukomska, 40, a midwife who was shopping for a winter hat this week. "We can only stand to gain from it in the long run."

That is very much a matter of debate. Europe's paymasters, led by France and Germany, are petitioning to freeze the union's budget — a move seen by some as a form of payback to Poland, which expects to be a prime recipient of European aid after it joins the union in May.Despite a population of 39 million and by far the largest economy in Central Europe, many here fear that Poland will not be treated as a full partner in a greater Europe.

"We keep seeing ourselves as a small country," Danuta Hübner, the minister for European affairs, said in an interview. "In fact, Poland is a big country. We are half of what is joining Europe in terms of population. We should have the responsibilities that come with being a big country."

Such talk is heard more and more often these days. Five months before it adds 10 new countries with 75 million people, the European Union seems to be cleaving into two camps — one centered on France and Germany, the other encompassing an assortment of bantam and middleweight countries.

This latest crisis erupted two weeks after Germany and France effectively vitiated the fiscal rules that govern the countries using the euro as their common currency, refusing to bring their budget deficits under a mandated ceiling.

For Europe's smaller countries — as well as would-be members, who are dutifully bringing their finances into line with European standards — the impunity with which France and Germany acted suggests that the union keeps a different rulebook for its biggest members.

In Poland's case, the frictions with Germany and France have been aggravated by Warsaw's staunch support of the American-led war on Iraq, which Berlin and Paris just as staunchly opposed.



http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/19/international/europe/19POLA.html?hp
Tit for tat I see.

Being as we are not a democracy andnever were{democracies are free for alls} who cares what they think. The recounts would not show Bush loosing and Gore wining unless you ignore all those military votes he [gor wanted tosed]and you keep changing the rules as you count{which is what they wanted to do}. My neighbors dog could be elected that way.

[Phreakmeister]

What did the EU draft constitution say? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2950276.stm

[DEAD ZONE]

which revissed version?

[Serendipity]

Originally posted by weldordave

Florida votes. Florida is populated by a people who love to vote. They love to vote so much that many do it 2 or 3 times on election day. Many times even the dead in Florida vote. Heck, sometimes even pets vote in Florida. So when a foreigner spouts off about votes, popular votes, elections, or anything politically American we know that his/her/its ideas came from one news source. Certainly not a working knowledge of the American political system. And we know that when an American starts talking about "foreigners" in this way, he really doesn't know his Assyria from his Elba. Ever heard of the non sequiteur, Dave? This one's a classic.For we Americans all know that the politics you read about and that which is practiced are two different concepts. A hard, if not impossible, idea for a foreigner to grasp from the media. The South has had voting credibility problems throughout our history, as well as all other states.I'm not singling out the South. Our founders, being somewhat far-sighted saw this as an issue and followed the electoral system. Not an American invention at all. A concept that was borrowed and works well. Perfect? Not hardly. But far better than anything else when considering all the American political variables. Geopolitical climes can be described as South, North, and Other. You can interchange West with Other whenever you want. Southern politics are different than Northern politics and so forth. I was taught in HS government that every American should run for an elected office at least once in their life. I did, I lost, but learned much about how politics "really works" here in the US. So, again, for a foreigner to be spouting off about their great knowledge of American politics is just plain laughable. And their opinions on elections with popular votes without the consideration that about 15%(yes, that high) of the votes are fraudulent anyway are just that...opinions. And like rectums, everybody has an opinion. Dave, King Solomon is American as apple pie. I am not. Instead, I am a foreigner. ...we Americans all know that the politics you read about and that which is practiced are two different concepts. A hard, if not impossible, idea for a foreigner to grasp from the media. Perhaps that's because the politics we read about is what goes in the media? Are you saying that the news we get from the US is untrue or selective? What's new in that? Anyway, please forgive me for my complete inability to apply any intelligence or experience to what I glean about what's going on in America - I'm a foreigner, see, and the notion of electoral irregularity is alien to me. :rolleyes:

I never, "spouted off about my great knowledge of American politics". I stated that I more-or-less understand the electoral college system, and I reiterated what I believe to be a well-known fact - that, according to the official count, Gore won the popular vote - which is not an opinion at all. Because I don't participate in American politics, I don't give two hoots about American elections in which up to 15% of the votes are fraudulent.

PS...
American Foreign Policy - Summary: France sucks. Bomb Iraq.
American Foreign Policy - In-Depth: France really sucks. Bomb Iraq heavily!
:lol:p

PPS: The English language is another borrowed concept that works well for the US. So, for that matter, is the internal combustion engine.
-----------------------------------------------------

Great Googly Moogly - American politics! This thread is not about American politics. It's about the EU Constitution and the people trying to draw it up.

[DEAD ZONE]

Originally posted by Serendipity

PS...
American Foreign Policy - Summary: France sucks. Bomb Iraq.
American Foreign Policy - In-Depth: France really sucks. Bomb Iraq heavily!
:lol:p

PPS: The English language is another borrowed concept that works well for the US. So, for that matter, is the internal combustion engine.
-----------------------------------------------------

Great Googly Moogly - American politics! This thread is not about American politics. It's about the EU Constitution and the people trying to draw it up. [/B]


there's Le Parisien: "If a glorious solitude is the price of greatness, no one can doubt that France lives the highest hours of its civilization." Glorious solitude. Those unilateralist dogs.

M de Villepin rejected suggestions that France lost face by being kept out of the diplomatic loop, arguing that it was a perfect example of his vision of an interdependent, multi-polar world at work. "It is only natural that those who are best placed at a given moment to use their capabilities to the common good do so, as long as their action is of an unquestionably multilateral nature."... Even the normally pro-government Le Figaro described the Libyan deal as a "semi-failure" for France, which has been against tough action against rogue states. Annick Lepetit, the Socialist party spokesman, said it signified "the isolation of France and French diplomacy in an area where it is traditionally influential".
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$EQ4WUXLCSEYMHQFIQMFCFFOAVCBQ YIV0?xml=/news/2003/12/23/wlibya23.xml&sSheet=/portal/2003/12/23/ixportal.html

spin for the best results.

We can also question why France was absent from Libya's aggiornamento [modernization; becoming current]. The dawn of a new strategic reality in the Middle East is accompanied by a considerable and dangerous division between Europe and the United States."LE MONDE

you screwed the pooch and now you are OUTA HERE!!

even the french are getting it.

[weldordave]

Wel Dip, your use of the term "borrowed" implies a debt that must be repaid. Something that is "borrowed" must be given back. So, Dip, your saying that you think we must give you back...what? What "borrowed" thing do you want back?

[Serendipity]

Dave, you could drive a bus between what I imply and what you infer. Americans, however, have made many improvements to the English language. Like most island races, we are rather conservative and choose not to adopt these improvements :) Keep it, and good luck. :)

[weldordave]

Originally posted by Serendipity
Dave, you could drive a bus between what I imply and what you infer. Americans, however, have made many improvements to the English language. Like most island races, we are rather conservative and choose not to adopt these improvements :) Keep it, and good luck. :)
Well, anyway, What do you want back that we "borrowed"?
Note: You can keep Lucas Electrics "The Crown Prince of Darkness"
Amal carbs
The Minnie
Funny you should mention the internal combustion engine. I don't think we ever embraced ANY English concept on this.
BTW one of my English professors once said "Beware of Englishmen that speak Latin. They are confused by a multiple of two." (She was from England.) I think the implication was that English is a world language. The inference was that if you speak the world language and find it necessary to drum up a dead language in conversation it is akin to a child stirring a clear water hole to see it muddied.



:lol