TREASON

I believe that whoever commits the act of treason and is found guilty of this act, should be put to death by hanging immediately.

I have mixed feelings on this issue. On one hand, if you do something against your own country because you hate everyone who resides there, I would agree to the death penalty. However, if you try to start a revolt because you feel it is in the best interest of the people of the country and merely wish to have a change in government, the death penalty shouldn't even come into play.

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[ogb]

Besides that it should be lifelong prison term instead of death penalty, I don't see why it is more honourable to do a violent revolt against the government if you want to have a change. We got elections for it, if the majority of the people wants a change, it can express its will on this way.

[weldordave]

Originally posted by Perry Mason:
I believe that whoever commits the act of treason and is found guilty of this act, should be put to death by hanging immediately.

I agree, but lets draw & quarter them! But please consider this. Were our founding fathers, being English subjects, guilty of treason when they started the Revolution? Is there treason against the Crown? Hey Dippy, what's the word on treason on that side of the pond? If I remember my history; weren't the redcoats after Adams & Han**** for treason when the Lexington/Concord thing started? I guess one man's treason is another man's revolution.

[weldordave]

YOU SEE! THE SECOND PATRIOT MENTIONED IS SOOOO GUILTY I CANNOT EVEN PRINT HIS NAME ON THIS SITE!!!!(LOL)

[Phreakmeister]

OGB:
So you think changes can come from the elections? Well, think again. In a bi-partison country like the U.S. after all is, let's face it, there's simply no room for a third party. So peaceful revolution through elections in the U.S. is just not possible.
In some countries changes can come from elections. But what if those in charge ignore the results? (No, I'm not talking about Florida this time). Mugabe did it, and will do it again this year. Milosevic did it. Lenin did it, back in 1917. If that happens, there's no other way out than a violent revolution. Because a peaceful revolution through elections was made impossible.

Do you think that those involved in the overthrow of Milosevic should then be tried for treason as well?

[ogb]

Changes can come from elections if the people want it that way. Admittedly in the USA the chances for that are extremely low, but that doesn't give the right to start a revolution. In every country you'll find people who'd prefer other forms of governing, but this doesn't give them the right for violence.
For sure, this is only valid in democracy. If a government doesn't accept free elections (or the result of it), then they have to be ignored and punished internationally. Then the people also have a right to revolt. I just thought of the USA as Perry Mason surely thought of that.

[Idnew]

Moving this to Fake Laws

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[Enforcer]

My grandfather betrayed his country in WW2
He was german he helped poeple here in holland, they'd call that treason!

Furthermore, I don't think your country should mean anything to you whatsoever.
For me I live where I live but there are no country borders for me
I don't believe one country or its inhabitants is any better then another and i think the whole "my country" thing is stupid

"UBI BENE, UBI PATRIA", as the romans said
for the less educated among us:

Where it's good is your homeland.
I think what they mean is you should feel a connection to the country in which you are treated right, and not the country where you were born!

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Would you please step away from the vehicle?

[Phreakmeister]

I couldn't agree more with Enforcer.
It's the people, who during the years, drew little lines around the countries. But why should I feel more related to someone who lives hundreds of miles to the south, but in the same country, than to someone who lives a few miles to the east, but in another country (in my case Germany)?

All my grandparents were in the resistance too in WW2. So officially they committed treason against the German occupants.
My greatgrandfather was a communist, who tried to get the Russian Revolution of 1917 to The Netherlands. (to Enforcer: hij streed samen met Troelstra) Officially you could say he committed treason, but whether you agree with the Russian Revolution or not, all that my greatgrandfather was interested in, was the fate of the people, the fate of the working class. But because he was revolutionary, you could say he committed treason. Even though he stood up for what is right: the fate of the oppressed.

[Enforcer]

You tell'em, Phreak

And about communism: I think the concept was great!
It just didn't work out the way it was supposed to

the whole "dictatorship of the proletariate" didn't work as it should
and when everybody gets paid the same, they aren't really motivated to work hard
but that's it if all poeple were honest and willing to pay their tribute to society i think communism might even (have) work(ed)
maybe in an ideal future

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Would you please step away from the vehicle?

[Enforcer]

I've just been lookin'into Troelsta, cuz i'm not a whiz at History so..
But he's the 'Gij mist de zedelijke kracht en het politiek staatkundig recht om daar te blijven zitten als de regering van het Nederlandse volk'-guy, right?

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Would you please step away from the vehicle?

[Enforcer]

By the way where was this originally posted?
(what section?)

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Would you please step away from the vehicle?

[Phreakmeister]

I think, he was yeah. But I'm not sure.

This was originally posted in State Laws.

If a government of a country becomes harmful to its people, we have the right to start a revolution, in order to revert the wrongdoings. It's even a constitutional right in the US, remember?

[This message has been edited by Phreakmeister (edited January 25, 2002).]

[Sjax]

I totally agree with you two dutchmen. The national states is a myth. You dont necesarily have anything in common with the people who happens to live in the same country as you. Why would you??

Nationalism hasnt ever brought us any good. Only wars and killings.

[Serendipity]

Argh! I've just seen this topic!

WeldorDave, as far as I know in Britain treason is still a hanging offence, the only one we have (that may have changed since we joined the European Union, which permits no death penalty). Nobody has been charged with this for a while, and nobody at all has been hanged.

Re: the original post:

I disagree. I suspect Perry Mason has in mind those Americans who have taken the Taliban's side in the current squabble in Afghanistan, right? Well, for that to be treasonable behaviour there needs to be a formal declaration of war, which has not been forthcoming from Washington. So if you're not at war with a country, how can you charge one of your own citizens with treason for taking its side?

Deportation and exile is surely a better way of dealing with dissidents?

As for communism, it looks great on paper, it's just awful in practice.

And as for nationalism, I regard the act of criticising my country as patriotic. If I didn't want the place to be better, that would indicate that I didn't care about it, and if I don't care then why would I bother? On the other hand, jingoism (blind patriotism) stinks. Anybody who has travelled will know that there are both cool people and ***holes in other countries, just like in their own. In a way it's a shame that the differences that give most problems to travellers - language, diet, customs, etc. - are superficial, yet present the greatest obstacles.

Big respect to you guys' grandfathers - we owe a huge debt of gratitude to the resistance.

[Serendipity]

[That is the most embarrasing double post ever! http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/redface.gif I hope nobody noticed]

[This message has been edited by Serendipity (edited January 30, 2002).]

[~wildangel~]

Darn,I missed it!!! http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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[weldordave]

Originally posted by Phreakmeister:
I think, he was yeah. But I'm not sure.

This was originally posted in State Laws.

If a government of a country becomes harmful to its people, we have the right to start a revolution, in order to revert the wrongdoings. It's even a constitutional right in the US, remember?

[This message has been edited by Phreakmeister (edited January 25, 2002).]
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!! It is NOT constitutional to start a revolution in the US! Your words and thoughts are not right! The US constitution will be defended "against all enemies, foreign and domestic"(oath of allegiance, US ARMED FORCES). That scrap of paper has more meaning than just an excuse for turmoil. Please read it, twice. It also gives you and YOUR country rights and protections FROM US!

[Phreakmeister]

--That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

This is one of the very first lines of the Declaration of Independence.
Now what were you saying again?

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Do you believe in death after life?

[weldordave]

Not wanting to get into a debate I'll argue your "select" use of a small part of a much larger document then fade out of this one. What you posted does not mean revolution but the peoples right to change government to their liking. Which we do CONSTANTLY. Elections, amendments, revisions, levies, referendums, initiatives, protests, lobbies, on and on. I guess a "revolution" could occur but it is highly unlikely. We have built safegards into our system to ensure that any change is mandated by a majority rather than a minority. Remember, our revolution against the crown was carried out by a very small minority of colonists. The majority of colonists were Tories, but too lazy to get involved. Historically, it has taken quite a bit to get America to take up arms for anything. We would rather negotiate or buy our way out. Not very flattering, but true. If you read it and interpet revolution, more power to you. It was created for "WE THE PEOPLE", not politicians and lawyers. I am partial to "ensure domestic tranquility". Finally, one quote has stuck in my head and I can't remember who said it. "Revolution is a nasty business, frought with danger, and brings out the worst in men." Happy trails and thank you for your valuable opinion.

[Phreakmeister]

How select the part may be, it still is there, which you can't deny. And although it doesn't mention the right to start a genuine revolution, it doesn't exclude the right either. It says that anything is allowed, as long as the wellbeing of the people is served with it.

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Do you believe in death after life?

[weldordave]

OK Phreak, I'll give you an example. I brew my own beer. The law states that I can only brew 100 gallons per year. I don't agree with this. Is it my "right" to start a revolution? Is it my "right" to declare my property separate from the union and start shooting the regulators? Confusing "rights" of freedom, independence, and revolution leads to chaos. Of course, this is about as trivial a matter that I can come up with to suit my argument.

[Phreakmeister]

When it hurts the common happiness of the population, according to the Declaration of Independence, American citizens have the right to change the government by any means whatsoever, as long is it fits their needs and demands. So if 99,99% of the population wanna have the regulation changed, and a revolution is the best way to change it, then I can't help it, but then you're entitled to start a revolution. I wouldn't agree with such a thing, but I couldn't deny you the right. I'm sorry. The DoI is clear:
If the happiness of the people is under threat, then it is the right of the people to change the government to suit their happiness by any means whatsoever.

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Do you believe in death after life?

[weldordave]

anything is allowed, as long as the wellbeing of the people is served with it.

[/B][/QUOTE]
I'm sure Hitler, Stalin, Castro, Hirohito, Mao, Saddam, Chea Guiverra, Napolean, Caligula, Attilla, and Clinton thought this as well.


[This message has been edited by weldordave (edited February 17, 2002).]

[Phreakmeister]

Ché Guevara rulezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif

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Do you believe in death after life?

[Enforcer]

I think there are lots of things in American law that say axactly the opposite of other stuff in American law and I think that if Bush in some way decided today was the day he became dictator of the US and started to suppress poeple, the american poeple would revolt and wether they'd have this right or not , I don't think it'd matter.

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LOVE and PEACE!

Maybe I'll get more pessimistic with the years but I hope I never will!

I agree, but lets draw & quarter them!

Yes.....let us..that would be a rightfull punishment..... Mesa thinks....

[Phreakmeister]

Originally posted by Enforcer
if Bush in some way decided today was the day he became dictator of the US and started to suppress poeple, the american poeple would revolt

Please let them...

[weldordave]

You would only be happy if the Netherlands elected our prez. Sorry, we won that war in 1945!

[kontulib]

Punishments here:

Treason: imprisonment 1-10 years
High treason: imprisonment least 4 years or life sentence
Espionage: look treason
Aggravated espionage: look high treason
Illegal intelligence activity: imprisonment 1-6 years

[Phreakmeister]

Over here:

Treason: life inprisonment or 20 years.
High treason: see Treason.
Espionage: 15 years (20 in times of war)
Preparing espionage: 6 years

You would only be happy if the Netherlands elected our prez.

No, I wouldn't. I have no problem whatsoever with Americans choosing their own president, unlike you may sometimes think. I just disagree with the way Bush jr. became president. If he had won the majority vote either in the US or in Florida, I would have accepted it (even though I don't like Bush). If Bush had democratically won, I would have accepted it.

Sorry, we won that war in 1945!

What does that have to do with it?
May I remind you, that in 1939-1945 it was Germany against the allied forces, not The Netherlands? And may I remind you, that it was not just the US who formed the Allies?

[weldordave]

And it is so important that a schoolchild in the Netherlands accept our election. Just as Cpt. Kirk had Klingon problems, so do you . You Klingon to the election and Florida. WE had "chad" probems here yet you never heard of that thru CNN or ITN or whatever.
The referance to WW2: WE do not allow foreigners to "accept" or "approve" of our elected officials. See Netherlands politics and Nazi party of 1940's. So you can see how little your "acceptance" of the election means to Joe Lunchbox. Your small, limited view of the entire FIFTY state election process is not only evident but laughable.

[Sjax]

Fifty states or not Dave, that doesnt change the fact that Gore had the most votes.

Why is that our business?
Take a look around, man. Your psycho-president is a serious threat to the world peace.

[Dizbuster]

Originally posted by Sjax
Fifty states or not Dave, that doesnt change the fact that Gore had the most votes.

Why is that our business?
Take a look around, man. Your psycho-president is a serious threat to the world peace.

Really!

I mean he seemed to be pretty peaceful up to about, oh lets say September 11th 2001.

Funny how watching a handful of maniacs bring down skyscrapers and crash into public buildings can change your outlook on life, now doesn't it.

[Phreakmeister]

Originally posted by weldordave
And it is so important that a schoolchild in the Netherlands accept our election. Just as Cpt. Kirk had Klingon problems, so do you . You Klingon to the election and Florida. WE had "chad" probems here yet you never heard of that thru CNN or ITN or whatever.
The referance to WW2: WE do not allow foreigners to "accept" or "approve" of our elected officials. See Netherlands politics and Nazi party of 1940's. So you can see how little your "acceptance" of the election means to Joe Lunchbox. Your small, limited view of the entire FIFTY state election process is not only evident but laughable.

1) I am not a school child, Dave. Please.

2) Let's be real: who won the elections? Gore or Bush? Who got majority vote? Gore or Bush? Who got most votes in Florida? Gore or Bush? All of these questions can only be answered with Gore. Therefore, who should be in the White House? Al Gore. But who is? George W. Bush jr. What is the problem about this? America claims to be the shining example of freedom and democracy in the world. Even though the last elections have proven that claim to be void.

3) So you don't allow foreigners to accept or approve your elected officials. Does that make Bush's presidency just one bit more legitimate? No it doesn't. It doesn't change the fact that Bush lost, and that the Supreme Court made him president.

4) Again: what does the German occupation of Europe have to do with Bush's election theft?

5) You're quite fond of Joe Lunchbox, aren't you?

6) So elections are a 50 state process. True. But again: does that make Bush's election victory any more legitimate?


Some people compare George W. Bush to Hitler. I don't. Hitler was elected.