John Kerry-Vietnam War protester

[King Solomon]

Senator John Kerry served honorably in the U.S. Navy during the Vietnam War. Upon his return to the U.S. he did all he could to see to the end of that unjust war. He DID NOT comfort and befriend the enemy as Hanoi Jane did.

I can only believe that those of you who think what John Kerry did was traitorous to our country think also that it was OK for 58,000 brave men and women to die in that war and that it would have been alright for many more to do the same. These are probably the same people that believe that we should keep our mouths shut while many good men and women die in the unjust war that now consumes us in Iraq.

If it had not been for outspoken people like John Kerry the Vietnam War could very well have lasted much longer then it did. If everybody had said nothing then the powers that be would have thought that it was OK to stay the course. God Bless John Kerry and good luck this coming November. And least I forget isn’t it time we got out of Iraq and turned it over to the UN? I am tired of our troops dying for Bush’s lie.

[DEAD ZONE]

He Did? What he did when he got back is treasonous. Even his fellow vets say so.

John Kerry is a decorated war hero. They say this makes his actions and life unquestionable. He is a patriot and his actions proved it in Vietnam.



First off I thank you for you service Mr. Kerry. However, this is not a get out of jail free card.



Benedict Arnold was a war hero. At the battle of Saratoga .He was wounded in battle as well{actually twice in the leg in 2 seperate battles}. During the Battle of Freeman's Farm he had just led a brilliant charge against a British redoubt when his horse was shot from under him. This extraordinary field generalship led some of his soldiers to later characterize him as "the very genius of war.” He [Arnold] later turned from one of the great heroes of the American Revolution into the epitome of traitorousness.

Please keep this in mind when reading the rest of this .

wwwWinterSoldier.com

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/1/20/131219.shtml
The book Kerry does not want you to see.
http://www.newsmax.com/images/headlines/KerryNewSoldier.jpg

If you mention Jane Fonda's name to a Vietnam veteran, it's a lightning-rod reaction," says Ted Sampley, publisher of the U.S. Veteran Dispatch and staunch opponent of Mr. Kerry. "She was supposed to be antiwar, but she clearly sided with one of the belligerents, which precludes her from being antiwar. She was a partisan."

"This picture exposes just how close John Kerry was to Jane Fonda," he says. However, he says the photograph doesn't reveal anything that many veterans of Vietnam didn't already know. {see home page for the picture}.

"Joining the antiwar movement was possibly the worst thing he could have done to the soldiers still in the field," he said. "He basically gave aid and comfort to the enemy."

Rep. Sam Johnson, Texas Republican, who spent nearly seven years in a prisoner-of-war camp in Vietnam, said yesterday the photograph of Mr. Kerry with Miss Fonda will hurt him nevertheless.

"I think it symbolizes how two-faced he is, talking about his war reputation, which is questionable on the one hand, and then coming out against our veterans who were fighting over there on the other," Mr. Johnson said.

Mr. Johnson recalled that his North Vietnamese captors played recordings of Miss Fonda telling U.S. troops to give up the war. "Seeing this picture of Kerry with her at antiwar demonstrations in the United States just makes me want to throw up."

http://www.washtimes.com/national/2...23002-8027r.htm

They say he met here before the trip to hanoi. That still does not take away from the fact he was going along with the protests and asociating with those carrying N. V. flags and portraits of MAO.He asociated himself with these people BY CHOICE.He also LEAD and organized demonstrations so the "he could not control what they did" line holds no credibility.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=37049
Fonda admitted that she and Kerry addressed the crowd that day from the same platform, she maintained that their contact was minimal, telling CNN, "I don't even think we shook hands."
Her account stands in stark contrast, however, to that of presidential historian Douglas Brinkley, who reported in his Kerry biography "Tour of Duty" that after Fonda and the top Democrat appeared at the same Valley Forge demonstration, she "adopted" Kerry's group, Vietnam Veterans Against the War, as "her leading cause."

just go to http://home.earthlink.net/~thaylj/ and click kerry page and kerry 2.

Lots of goodies there.

[Ateo]

The public will care more about the fraudulent war we're in and the tanking economy rather than whether Kerry may or may not have had a friendship with Jane Fonda 30 years ago.

DZ is it your belief that those Americans who publicly and vocally opposed the Vietnam war were traitors? Yes or no, please.

[DEAD ZONE]

Originally posted by tigsnort
The public will care more about the fraudulent war we're in and the tanking economy rather than whether Kerry may or may not have had a friendship with Jane Fonda 30 years ago.

DZ is it your belief that those Americans who publicly and vocally opposed the Vietnam war were traitors? Yes or no, please. To broad.

Just protest ,Of course not. Colaberate and aid the enemy,YES.

[King Solomon]

Originally posted by DEAD ZONE
...Just protest ,Of course not. Colaberate and aid the enemy,YES.

Show me where he collaborated and aided the enemy. He never went to Vietnam and shook hands with the enemy like Fonda did. I'll bet you would have sat on your hands and just let the war continue, but then the war WAS expanded by that wonderful piece from Texas LBJ. So what if thousands more of our boys get killed so long as Lady Bird can make a few more million off of Brown and Root. :smash

[w1che]

Hilter was wounded & decorated in WW1. Should we have given him a free pass because of that for the rest of his life? Kerry lied to congress & his actions encouraged the enemy to keep killing Americans just like you liberal are doing now in the Iraqi war.

At the very least Kerry Supported traitors so that makes him a traitor plus a liar.. If you hate America vote for Kerry..

[King Solomon]

w1che, I can see from your post that you have no problem with our brave soldiers dying in an unjust war. Too bad that you are such the coward that you wont sign up and fight that war yourself. You're real brave with someone else's life. What a hypocrite http://rockbottomdlux.freewebspace.com/smilies/RedFinger.gif

[DEAD ZONE]

Originally posted by King Solomon


Show me where he collaborated and aided the enemy. He never went to Vietnam and shook hands with the enemy like Fonda did. I'll bet you would have sat on your hands and just let the war continue, but then the war WAS expanded by that wonderful piece from Texas LBJ. So what if thousands more of our boys get killed so long as Lady Bird can make a few more million off of Brown and Root. :smash I gave you the site. so dont get mad if this is long.

If you mention Jane Fonda's name to a Vietnam veteran, it's a lightning-rod reaction," says Ted Sampley, publisher of the U.S. Veteran Dispatch and staunch opponent of Mr. Kerry. "She was supposed to be antiwar, but she clearly sided with one of the belligerents, which precludes her from being antiwar. She was a partisan."

"This picture exposes just how close John Kerry was to Jane Fonda," he says. However, he says the photograph doesn't reveal anything that many veterans of Vietnam didn't already know. {see home page for the picture}.

"Joining the antiwar movement was possibly the worst thing he could have done to the soldiers still in the field," he said. "He basically gave aid and comfort to the enemy."

Rep. Sam Johnson, Texas Republican, who spent nearly seven years in a prisoner-of-war camp in Vietnam, said yesterday the photograph of Mr. Kerry with Miss Fonda will hurt him nevertheless.

"I think it symbolizes how two-faced he is, talking about his war reputation, which is questionable on the one hand, and then coming out against our veterans who were fighting over there on the other," Mr. Johnson said.

Mr. Johnson recalled that his North Vietnamese captors played recordings of Miss Fonda telling U.S. troops to give up the war. "Seeing this picture of Kerry with her at antiwar demonstrations in the United States just makes me want to throw up."

http://www.washtimes.com/national/2...23002-8027r.htm

They say he met here before the trip to hanoi. That still does not take away from the fact he was going along with the protests and asociating with those carrying N. V. flags and portraits of MAO.He asociated himself with these people BY CHOICE.He also LEAD and organized demonstrations so the "he could not control what they did" line holds no credibility.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=37049
Fonda admitted that she and Kerry addressed the crowd that day from the same platform, she maintained that their contact was minimal, telling CNN, "I don't even think we shook hands."
Her account stands in stark contrast, however, to that of presidential historian Douglas Brinkley, who reported in his Kerry biography "Tour of Duty" that after Fonda and the top Democrat appeared at the same Valley Forge demonstration, she "adopted" Kerry's group, Vietnam Veterans Against the War, as "her leading cause."
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/2/11/191058.shtml
Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW). This was {and still would be }an extremist fringe group that Kerry joined and help lead. By the VVAW's own accounting only about 30,000 joined its ranks.Sound like allot? Considering around 21/2 million Americans served in Vietnam this is a very low number, especially when the military was filled with conscripts during an unpopular war. VVAW was surely no American Legion or the Veterans of Foreign Wars. Its description of U.S. soldiers as ravaging war criminals turned off most vets
As William Hawkins reports, "the VVAW showed more sympathy for those who refused to serve than those who did. According to the group's own history, "VVAW fought for amnesty for war resisters, including vets with bad discharges."This is an interesting fact to set beside Kerry's attempt today to denigrate President Bush's honorable service as a fighter pilot with the Air National Guard......
Mr. Kerry cannot be held directly responsible for what VVAW has done since he left the group, but neither has he denounced its activities. His campaign Website proudly mentions his VVAW membership, and the VVAW prominently displays its ties to Mr. Kerry.

And many of their public positions continue to match. VVAW thinks "Iraq, along with its oil and humanitarian problems should be turned over to the U.N. and international humanitarian organizations," which is also candidate John Kerry's position. And Mr. Kerry's long Senate career has been marked by opposition to military programs and defense spending.

It would seem Mr. Kerry's service with the VVAW has had much more to do with shaping the senator's public record on the issues than did his military service in Vietnam. He did what he had to do under fire and deserves praise for that. But what he has chosen to do since in politics is the better predictor of what he would do as president. "

http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/20040211-093523-1621r.htm
WASHINGTON – Robert Novak has come up with a 34-year-old flier that lists speakers for an anti-Vietnam War rally at Valley Forge State Park, Pa., Sept. 7, 1970. On that list he states are the names of “two of that era's most notorious leftist agitators, the Rev. James Bevel and Mark Lane, plus actress Jane Fonda, a symbol of extreme opposition to the war. Leading off the list was a less familiar name: John Kerry.”
That pretty much puts the ax on Kerry’s {and his supporters} excuse that his acquaintance with "Hanoi Jane" was accidental, just a coincidence.
Kerry has little to nothing to do with Jane Fonda these days. He is expressing disapproval of her adventures in Hanoi but that hardly exonerates him from his relation ship with her and the other radicals that marched under communist Vietnam flags, portraits of Moa and other known communists as well as doing all this while his “comrades” were being tortured and killed. The documents exposed by Novak reveal that Kerry and Hanoi Jane “shared the same platform and the same wing of the anti-war movement. That is surely as valid as investigating how many National Guard drills Bush attended.”


Kerry and Fonda both were running around and gleefully associating with war resisters of the most extreme kind. Kerry was the New England representative for the VVAW executive committee meeting Sept. 11, 1970. The minutes of that meeting, says Novak," show plans to picket the National Guard Association convention in New York, to sponsor 'war crimes testimony' at the U.N. and to coordinate with Jane Fonda's speaking tour. A later VVAW staff meeting decided to bar the American flag from the organization's offices.”
In the 2000 election, Kerry was eager to use the National Guard issue, comparing Bush unfavorably with "those of us who were in the military." Just 4 years later, the senator has become less direct, by trying to link Bush's Guard service to people who "went to Canada" or "opposed the war."
Kerry, now that his own record is being exposed, is backed away from that one time gleeful National Guard question and has been reported to have told his supporters to follow that lead.
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/robertnovak/rn20040219.shtml


http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/

VVAW was a media favorite: war veterans who were anti-war. Quite a sales pitch. But the more realistic characterization would have been Americans who were anti-American. (Literally, too: One of the documents at WinterSoldier.com is the minutes of a VVAW executive meeting where members decided to take down American flags from all VVAW offices.)

Their goal was not just to sour Americans on the Vietnam war, but to make them hate America and American soldiers.


Hence the Winter Soldier Investigation.


The three-day circus featured tales of the most sadistic forms of torture, including genital mutilation and gang rape, and wanton mass murder of innocent civilians. In the words of Kerry three months later to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, “These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.”


In other words, Kerry and VVAW claimed that almost unprecedented war crimes were not simply rampant, but committed as a matter of U.S. policy.

there is evidence suggesting that many of the atrocities routinely touted by VVAW were, well, made up.


An excerpt of historian Guenter Lewy’s book According to America posted on WinterSoldier.com discusses the results of a government investigation that attempted to corroborate the claims made at the VVAW event in Detroit. The investigators couldn’t.


According to Lewy, the VVAW had told its members not to cooperate with the government inquiry—a probe that was initiated by Sen. Mark Hatfield of Oregon in order to verify gruesome claims made at the VVAW-sponsored event. The historian also notes that government inspectors found veterans whose names had been used by people testifying in Detroit that were not actually there.


In other words, some of the “witnesses” in Detroit were impostors, tarnishing the names of real soldiers.

[DEAD ZONE]

Gen. Giap: Kerry's Group Helped Hanoi Defeat U.S.
The North Vietnamese general
in charge of the military campaign
that finally drove the U.S. out of South Vietnam in 1975 credited a group led
by Democratic presidential front-runner John Kerry with helping him
achieve victory.
In his 1985 memoir about the
war, Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap wrote that if it weren't for organizations like Kerry's Vietnam Veterans Against the War, Hanoi would have surrendered to the U.S. - according to Fox News Channel war historian Oliver North.
"The Vietnam Veterans Against the War encouraged people to desert, encouraged people to mutiny - some used what they wrote to justify fragging officers," noted the former Marine lieutenant colonel, who earned two purple hearts in Vietnam.
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/2/10/222651.shtml

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kerry's participation in VVAW demonstrations means he would have to March{and did} alongside many revolutionary Communists. Exploiting his presence at such rallies, as we have mentioned on this page,was the Communist publication Daily World which thrilled in prominently publishing photographs of Kerry addressing anti-war protesters, some of whom were carrying banners with portraits of Communist Party leader Angela Davis. These demonstrations and marches were openly organized by known Communists They were typified by what the December 12, 1971, Herald Traveler called an “abundance of Vietcong flags, clenched fists raised in the air, and placards plainly bearing legends in support of China, Cuba, the USSR, North Korea and the Hanoi government.” During the time of Kerry's testimony in congress in 71,he charged that American perpetrated war crimes in Vietnam were the norm, not the exception and were carried out with the full awareness and blessing of officers at all levels of American military command.He himself claimed to have done so with a .50 cal in free fire zones.His 2 shipmates deny such and expressed their disagreement and saddened disappointment at these untruths.

What veterans think of his actions are summarized by the publication U.S. Veteran Dispatch , which notes that Kerry’s aforementioned testimony “occurred while some of his fellow Vietnam veterans were known by the world to be enduring terrible suffering as prisoners of war in North Vietnamese prisons.” Even Senator John McCain has stated that his North Vietnamese captors had used reports of Kerry-led protests to taunt him and his fellow prisoners. Retired General George S. Patton III angrily charged that Kerry’s actions were giving “aid and comfort to the enemy.”

Vietnam Veterans Against John Kerry (VVAJK), Vietnamese-Americans Against John Kerry (VAAJK), and Vietnamese-Americans for Human Rights in Vietnam (VAHRV} are united against Kerry.VVAJK founder Ted Sampley said “We represent hundreds of thousand of American veterans,”and “who do not want to see John Kerry anywhere near the Oval Office.” Another VVAJK statement reads, “As a national leader of VVAW, Kerry campaigned against the effort of the United States to contain the spread of Communism. He used the blood of servicemen still in the field for his own political advancement by claiming that their blood was being shed unnecessarily or in vain . . . Under Kerry’s leadership, VVAW members mocked the uniform of United States soldiers by wearing tattered fatigues marked with pro-communist graffiti. They dishonored America by marching in demonstrations under the flag of the Viet Cong enemy.” VAAJK member Dan Tran states “On behalf of tens of thousands of Vietnamese-Americans, we are determined to demonstrate against Senator Kerry all across this nation . . . John Kerry aided and abetted the Communist government in Hanoi and has hindered any human rights progress in Vietnam.”

According to the nonpartisan Center for Public Integrity, in December 1992 “Hanoi announced that it had awarded Colliers International, a Boston-based real estate company, an exclusive deal to develop its commercial real estate potentially worth billions. Stuart Forbes, the CEO of Colliers, is [John] Kerry’s cousin.” This was just after Kerry , as chairman of the Select Senate Committee on POW/MIA (Prisoners Of War/Missing In Action) Affairs,created in 1991, pushed and virtually demanded that the comity in charge of whether any American POWs or MIAs were still alive in Vietnam find that all Americans were dead.The U.S. Veteran Dispatch reported ,“[N]o one in the United States Senate pushed harder to bury the POW/MIA issue, the last obstacle preventing normalization of relations with Hanoi, than John Forbes Kerry.”
This is a repeat of whats on this page .Its a shorter version and is enough to make any American MAD!!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/2/17/124410.shtml
Tuesday, Feb. 17, 2004 12:35 p.m. EST
McCain: Hanoi Hilton Guards Taunted POWs With Kerry's TestimonyA
After he was released from the Hanoi Hilton in 1973, McCain publicly complained that testimony by Kerry and others before J. William Fulbright's Senate Foreign Relations Committee was "the most effective propaganda [my North Vietnamese captors] had to use against us."
"They used Senator Fulbright a great deal," McCain wrote in the May 14, 1973, issue of U.S. News & World Report. While he was languishing in a North Vietnamese prison cell, Kerry was telling the Fulbright committee that U.S. soldiers were committing war crimes in Vietnam as a matter of course.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All of this will be written off as the fulminations of an idealistic young man or just the times or even his "right" to protest.Right to protest is not the issue.Adding the enemy ,defaming and betraying brother soldiers and uniting with the likes of communist sympathizers and Hanoi Jans IS. The fact is that Kerry is still reading from the same book today. He is still trashing our intelligence services; he is saying we should defer to the United Nations before taking military action against known threats to the United States[this is after all his defense on his Iraq vote], and he is saying the Iraq war he voted for is an unjust war. He has refused to vote for the $87 billion supplemental appropriation for rebuilding Iraq and supporting our troops there and that after they are there.EMPHASIS.
No, thats not redundant, its a similar situation to the vietnam blasting he gave back in the 70's.He has pulled the same thing they did in Vietnam and the same thing Kerry blasted in those protests that were his right.
Kerry is consistent in these areas.These issues that matter the most in America today.
================================================== ===============
excerpt from:
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/...15/142343.shtml
Though NBC has the Kerry interview on tape, it has so far declined to broadcast his revealing comments.

The Sun also obtained reactions from two of Kerry's Swift Boat mates in Vietnam, who told the paper they were deeply disturbed by his anti-war activities.

Kerry crewman James Wasser said he was "absolutely upset" over his former commanding officer's claims that the U.S. committed wartime atrocities as a matter of course.

Saying he recalled no such war crimes, Wasser said of Kerry, "I felt betrayed."

Shipmate Bill Zaladonis was also offended by Kerry's claims. "I didn't like the idea [of Kerry condemning his fellow servicemen]," he told the Sun.

"I certainly didn't believe that all Vietnam veterans were baby-killing women rapers. Most people I know agree with me - they didn't see it."
------------------------------------------------------------
Kerry testified before Congress abot Vietnam shortly after he got back.He said American soldiers had "raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs ... poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam." He could not name any names and has not ever named anyone who committed these atrocious acts.He admited also he never witnessed these war crimes personally he spoke of. Kerry's words certainly contributed to fortifying Viet Cong morale and promoting Viet Cong interests as the general that was in charge of the N.Vietnamies prosecution of the war has stated .

"Kerry began pushing normalization of trade with Vietnam. To that purpose, he founded the Senate Select Committee for POW/MIA Affairs. Kerry became chair of the committee. In order to normalize trade, the Vietnamese government would have to prove that its hands were now clean with regard to POW/MIAs.
Kerry tried to erase the possibility that prisoners of war were still alive in captivity in Vietnam. I spoke Monday evening with Mike Benge, a POW/MIA activist. Benge was a civilian POW held from 1968 until 1973 by the North Vietnamese Army; he spent 27 months in solitary confinement, one year in a "black box," and one year in a cage in Cambodia. Benge accuses Sen. Kerry of shredding key papers documenting "live sightings of POWs in Vietnam and Laos" during the POW/MIA hearings. According to Benge, Kerry attempted to shred all copies to prevent leaks and future declassification of the materials.

John F. McCreary, a Defense Intelligence Agency analyst assigned to Kerry's committee, reported knowledge of Kerry's document shredding to Vice Chairman Bob Smith. "http://www.townhall.com/columnists/benshapiro/bs20040211.shtml

[DEAD ZONE]

much much more at the site. So if you are serious, go look. Otherwise ,I shall not waist time on someone that will never admit that kerry did aid the enemy.Even the enemy said so.

http://home.earthlink.net/~thaylj/

[Ateo]

Ted Sampley is a charlitan, scum.

http://www.bigleftoutside.com/archives/000355.php
"I strongly caution reporters who may be contacted by or are interested in Mr. Ted Sampley and the various organizations he claims to represent, and his opinions on the subject of Senator Kerry, or any subject for that matter, to investigate thoroughly Mr. Sampley's background and history of spreading outrageous slander and other disreputable behavior before inadvertently lending him or his allegations any credibility.

I am well familiar with Mr. Sampley, and I know him to be one of the most despicable people I have ever had the misfortune to encounter. I consider him a fraud who preys on the hopes of family members of missing servicemen for his own profit. He is dishonorable, an enemy of the truth, and despite his claims, he does not speak for or represent the views of all but a few veterans. The many veterans I know would think it a disgrace to be considered a comrade or supporter of Ted Sampley."

- John McCain, Feb '04

Bam. Why do you use crap from people like him to further your arguments DZ? All one has to do is a Google search for the name, you can see what a POS he is. This makes all your posts supsect.

PS - what "picture" of Fonda and Kerry was being referred to--the one that was falsified, or the one where the two happened to be in the same crowd several rows apart?

[Ateo]

Hint to readers:

Most of the time when you see anti-Kerry crap like this from sites like Newsmax and Worldnetdaily, things are presented out of context. You cannot take this stuff at face value. My advice is do your own research into the claims being made and the people making them. 99% of the time you'll find the facts have been manipulated and spun for partisan purposes.

[DEAD ZONE]

Originally posted by tigsnort
Hint to readers:

Most of the time when you see anti-Kerry crap like this from sites like Newsmax and Worldnetdaily, things are presented out of context. You cannot take this stuff at face value. My advice is do your own research into the claims being made and the people making them. 99% of the time you'll find the facts have been manipulated and spun for partisan purposes. Note to tig. Its not all those two and they were backed up by other sites.

Second note: when tig starts with the those sites are bias trash its usually because tig has no defence and does not really want to adress the issue.
Kerrys testimony in full is on the site linked to pdf formate tig. Better look before you make a fool out of yourself tig.

Can you say projection?

I knew you could.

[Ateo]

I've read his testimony DZ, and whatever conclusion one may reach about it is entirely subjective. You analyze it and see one thing, I see another. There is no factual proof that Kerry lied, or that he "aided the enemy". It's all speculation and interpretation.

[aclu14]

The only fact that is evident in this post is that the "picture of John Kerry and Jane Fonda" was clearly an attempt to smear his name, when the picture wasn't of them anywhere near eachother.

[King Solomon]

You know what DZ, I've seen several pictures of Don Rumsfield and Saddam Hussien together. Rummy was hired by Bush. Using the same logic then Rummy is a traitor for helping Saddam and Bush is a traitor for hiring Rumsfield. They are both responsible for the death of our brave soldiers in Iraq.

DZ, I consider everything that you say suspect mostly because you're from Texas and you can tell a Texan from a long ways away, but you get real close to them and you can't tell them a Dang thing :smash :lol :lol :p

[Ateo]

I consider any anti-Kerry stuff DZ posts suspect because he's got such an obvious hard-on for Bush's Iraq policy that it blinds him. This is the case for a lot of people I come across, who claim to be independent or libertarian and say "OK Bush may have misrepresented the truth, his people may have tried to pull the wool over our eyes, he's a gargantuan spender even bigger than the Democrats, he hasn't done crap to secure the borders because he seems to care more about the Hispanic vote than keeping American citizens safe, he's tanking the economy, he's doing nothing about outsourcing, he's dividing everyone, he's a religious nut, he believes in corporate welfare to the extreme, he's the most secretive and conniving president we've ever had--but at least he won't capitulate to the UN!"

I've never seen such blind, insane, paranoid partisanship.

[DustyBottoms]

Since the thread topic has been obliterated, I will put my two cents in.

Ignoring the Kerry protests, he is too far left to appeal to the majority of voters.

He will ultimately be judged by his voting record. Believe me, Bush will make it very public and it will destroy Kerry. He has voted against every defense and military spending bill during his tenure. He hates the military.

As you will ultimately find out - he is your next Michael Ducacus.

Mainstream America is and will remain primarily concerned about our national security. This includes a lot of you liberals who, when push comes to shove, will mark the Bush box in November. :)

[aclu14]

If Kerry is too far left, then Bush is far, far over to the right.

[Ateo]

Originally posted by DustyBottoms
Ignoring the Kerry protests, he is too far left to appeal to the majority of voters.

He will ultimately be judged by his voting record. Believe me, Bush will make it very public and it will destroy Kerry. He has voted against every defense and military spending bill during his tenure. He hates the military.As you will find out, many notable Republicans voted with him on those bills.

:)

[Ateo]

http://slate.msn.com//id/2096127/
Before George W. Bush's political operatives started pounding on John Kerry for voting against certain weapons systems during his years in the Senate, they should have taken a look at this quotation:

"After completing 20 planes for which we have begun procurement, we will shut down further production of the B-2 bomber. We will cancel the small ICBM program. We will cease production of new warheads for our sea-based ballistic missiles. We will stop all new production of the Peacekeeper [MX] missile. And we will not purchase any more advanced cruise missiles. … The reductions I have approved will save us an additional $50 billion over the next five years. By 1997 we will have cut defense by 30 percent since I took office."

The speaker was President George H.W. Bush, the current president's father, in his State of the Union address on Jan. 28, 1992.


They should also have looked up some testimony by Dick Cheney, the first President Bush's secretary of defense (and now vice president), three days later, boasting of similar slashings before the Senate Armed Services Committee:

"Overall, since I've been Secretary, we will have taken the five-year defense program down by well over $300 billion. That's the peace dividend. … And now we're adding to that another $50 billion … of so-called peace dividend."

Cheney proceeded to lay into the then-Democratically controlled Congress for refusing to cut more weapons systems.

"Congress has let me cancel a few programs. But you've squabbled and sometimes bickered and horse-traded and ended up forcing me to spend money on weapons that don't fill a vital need in these times of tight budgets and new requirements. … You've directed me to buy more M-1s, F-14s, and F-16s—all great systems … but we have enough of them."

The Republican operatives might also have noticed Gen. Colin Powell, then chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, at the same hearings, testifying about plans to cut Army divisions by one-third, Navy aircraft carriers by one-fifth, and active armed forces by half a million men and women, to say noting of "major reductions" in fighter wings and strategic bombers.

Granted, these reductions were made in the wake of the Soviet Union's dissolution and the Cold War's demise. But that's just the point: Proposed cuts must be examined in context. A vote against a particular weapons system doesn't necessarily indicate indifference toward national defense.

Looking at the weapons that the RNC says Kerry voted to cut, a good case could be made, certainly at the time, that some of them (the B-2 bomber and President Reagan's "Star Wars" missile-defense program) should have been cut. As for the others (the M-1 tank and the F-14, F-15, and F-16 fighter planes, among others), Kerry didn't really vote to cut them.

The claim about these votes was made in the Republican National Committee "Research Briefing" of Feb. 22. The report lists 13 weapons systems that Kerry voted to cut—the ones cited above, as well as Patriot air-defense missiles, Tomahawk cruise missiles, and AH64 Apache helicopters, among others.

It is instructive, however, to look at the footnotes. Almost all of them cite Kerry's vote on Senate bill S. 3189 (CQ Vote No. 273) on Oct. 15, 1990. Do a Google search, and you will learn that S. 3189 was the Fiscal Year 1991 Defense Appropriations Act, and CQ Vote No. 273 was a vote on the entire bill. There was no vote on those weapons systems specifically.

On a couple of the weapons, the RNC report cites H.R. 5803 and H.R. 2126. Look those up. They turn out to be votes on the House-Senate conference committee reports for the defense appropriations bills in October 1990 (the same year as S. 3189) and September 1995.

In other words, Kerry was one of 16 senators (including five Republicans) to vote against a defense appropriations bill 14 years ago. He was also one of an unspecified number of senators to vote against a conference report on a defense bill nine years ago. The RNC takes these facts and extrapolates from them that he voted against a dozen weapons systems that were in those bills. The Republicans could have claimed, with equal logic, that Kerry voted to abolish the entire U.S. armed forces, but that might have raised suspicions. Claiming that he opposed a list of specific weapons systems has an air of plausibility. On close examination, though, it reeks of rank dishonesty.

Another bit of dishonesty is RNC Chairman Ed Gillespie's claim, at a news conference today, that in 1995, Kerry voted to cut $1.5 billion from the intelligence budget. John Pike, who runs the invaluable globalsecurity.org Web site, told me what that cut was about: The Air Force's National Reconnaissance Office had appropriated that much money to operate a spy satellite that, as things turned out, it never launched. So the Senate passed an amendment rescinding the money—not to cancel a program, but to get a refund on a program that the NRO had canceled. Kerry voted for the amendment, as did a majority of his colleagues.

An examination of Kerry's real voting record during his 20 years in the Senate indicates that he did vote to restrict or cut certain weapons systems. From 1989-92, he supported amendments to halt production of the B-2 stealth bomber. (In 1992, George H.W. Bush halted it himself.) It is true that the B-2 came in handy during the recent war in Iraq—but for reasons having nothing to do with its original rationale.

The B-2 came into being as an airplane that would drop nuclear bombs on the Soviet Union. The program was very controversial at the time. It was extremely expensive. Its stealth technology had serious technical bugs. More to the point, a grand debate was raging in defense circles at the time over whether, in an age of intercontinental ballistic missiles and long-range cruise missiles, the United States needed any new bomber that would fly into the Soviet Union's heavily defended airspace. The debate was not just between hawks and doves; advocates and critics could be found among both.

In the latest war, B-2s—modified to carry conventional munitions—were among the planes that dropped smart bombs on Iraq. But that was like hopping in the Lincoln stretch limo to drop Grandma off at church. As for the other stealth plane used in both Iraq wars—the F-117, which was designed for non-nuclear missions—there is no indication that Kerry ever opposed it.

The RNC doesn't mention it, but Kerry also supported amendments to limit (but not kill) funding for President Reagan's fanciful (and eventually much-altered) "Star Wars" missile-defense system. Kerry sponsored amendments to ban tests of anti-satellite weapons, as long as the Soviet Union also refrained from testing. In retrospect, trying to limit the vulnerability of satellites was a very good idea since many of our smart bombs are guided to their targets by signals from satellites.

Kerry also voted for amendments to restrict the deployment of the MX missile (Reagan changed its deployment plan several times, and Bush finally stopped the program altogether) and to ban the production of nerve-gas weapons.

At the same time, in 1991, Kerry opposed an amendment to impose an arbitrary 2 percent cut in the military budget. In 1992, he opposed an amendment to cut Pentagon intelligence programs by $1 billion. In 1994, he voted against a motion to cut $30.5 billion from the defense budget over the next five years and to redistribute the money to programs for education and the disabled. That same year, he opposed an amendment to postpone construction of a new aircraft carrier. In 1996, he opposed a motion to cut six F-18 jet fighters from the budget. In 1999, he voted against a motion to terminate the Trident II missile. (Interestingly, the F-18 and Trident II are among the weapons systems that the RNC claims Kerry opposed.)

Are there votes in Kerry's 20-year record as a senator that might look embarrassing in retrospect? Probably. But these are not the ones.


Sorry about the long c&p, but sometimes it's necessary in order to counteract the RNC bullsh|t.

Again--check the facts when considering charges that Kerry is/was "anti-defense".

[Dumbie]

Tig, around 89- 94 I was spending a lot of time on Bases, ones that were closing and ones that were consolidating, and I as well as many people I know have personal experience on matters of the Republican and the Military.

If Dumbush even tries to lie on this subject he’ll have a half million service wives and children testifying how they stood in welfare lines and food programs to support themselves while the husbands served around the world.

You can probably look up the time before 9/11 when the military renounced the Dumbush plan. He promised them at lot in the campaign, but never delivered. There are plenty of articles out there, one would have a gold mine if they put them all together. :wink

[DEAD ZONE]

Originally posted by tigsnort
Ted Sampley is a charlitan, scum.

http://www.bigleftoutside.com/archives/000355.php


Bam. Why do you use crap from people like him to further your arguments DZ? All one has to do is a Google search for the name, you can see what a POS he is. This makes all your posts supsect.

PS - what "picture" of Fonda and Kerry was being referred to--the one that was falsified, or the one where the two happened to be in the same crowd several rows apart? One person tig???? there were dozens of sources and even MCain was one that said Kerrys material was used by North vietnam. Its called cooberation. Try it some time.


there was no falsefied picture on that site tig and you know it.{the closest was the flag and it tells you up front. so leaving out that fact makes YOUR misinformation suspect.

He did not just HAPPEN to be in the crowed as wa documented by multiple other sources.

The things Ted Sampley has to do with it is his giving the transcript of what mccain siad which is easily verified since its from account in U.S. News. McCain has not denied its use which would have been the first thing out of his mouth if it were not true not tomention the other cooberating evidence from others. You are again cherry picking and halve truthing tig.The rest are cooberated by others. Tig. Other wise you would be right.

[DEAD ZONE]

Originally posted by tigsnort
I've read his testimony DZ, and whatever conclusion one may reach about it is entirely subjective. You analyze it and see one thing, I see another. There is no factual proof that Kerry lied, or that he "aided the enemy". It's all speculation and interpretation. sorry tig its not suspect or any spin of interpretation. He said it, it was false, he admits he diod not see it, his ship mates have said they did not se it when with him so he knew at the time he was lying. Fellow vets have said he betrayed them{not samplyes so dont try that one again} and his statements are clear.

Fact is, the democrats are thier own worst enemy.They nominated a far left more liberal than kenedy anti defence enemt aidder.

[DEAD ZONE]

Originally posted by aclu14
The only fact that is evident in this post is that the "picture of John Kerry and Jane Fonda" was clearly an attempt to smear his name, when the picture wasn't of them anywhere near eachother. they shared the same stage at the same anti rally and it was known before hand they would. Novak has the handout confirming this.

[DEAD ZONE]

Originally posted by King Solomon
You know what DZ, I've seen several pictures of Don Rumsfield and Saddam Hussien together. Rummy was hired by Bush. Using the same logic then Rummy is a traitor for helping Saddam and Bush is a traitor for hiring Rumsfield. They are both responsible for the death of our brave soldiers in Iraq.

DZ, I consider everything that you say suspect mostly because you're from Texas and you can tell a Texan from a long ways away, but you get real close to them and you can't tell them a Dang thing :smash :lol :lol :p Wrong. A traitor helps a known enemy at the time aginst his own. That is not the case with dummy rummy. Its a sad state but at that time saddamwas on our side against iran. Kinda like stalen in WWII. we sent themmaterial and aid .When the war ended they became the enemy.That hardly makes us traitors.:smash

the fact you stup to personal attacks means we have hit another nerve. Thanks for the confirmation.Perhaps you will look before you leap next time.

[DEAD ZONE]

Originally posted by tigsnort
I consider any anti-Kerry stuff DZ posts suspect because he's got such an obvious hard-on for Bush's Iraq policy that it blinds him. This is the case for a lot of people I come across, who claim to be independent or libertarian and say "OK Bush may have misrepresented the truth, his people may have tried to pull the wool over our eyes, he's a gargantuan spender even bigger than the Democrats, he hasn't done crap to secure the borders because he seems to care more about the Hispanic vote than keeping American citizens safe, he's tanking the economy, he's doing nothing about outsourcing, he's dividing everyone, he's a religious nut, he believes in corporate welfare to the extreme, he's the most secretive and conniving president we've ever had--but at least he won't capitulate to the UN!"

I've never seen such blind, insane, paranoid partisanship. yea right. Any search here shows you completly ignorant and flat out a lier on that subject. nuff said.

[DEAD ZONE]

Originally posted by tigsnort
http://slate.msn.com//id/2096127/


Sorry about the long c&p, but sometimes it's necessary in order to counteract the RNC bullsh|t.

Again--check the facts when considering charges that Kerry is/was "anti-defense". Originally posted by tigsnort
As you will find out, many notable Republicans voted with him on those bills.

:) ALL of them? NO.

http://www.factcheck.org/imagefiles/image001.png

Twenty years ago, as a candidate battling another liberal for the Democratic nomination for the Senate in Massachusetts Kerry advocated terminating many strategic and tactical weapons.In this 1984 campaign memo (which a Kerry spokesman confirms is genuine) the candidate called for cutting Ronald Reagan’s military budget by between $45 billion and $53 billion through (among other things) cancellation of the MX missile, B-1 bomber, anti-satellite weapons, and the “Star Wars” anti-missile program, along with several conventional weapons that have become mainstays of the present-day military, including the AH-64 Apache helicopter, the Aegis air-defense cruiser, and the F-14 and F-15 fighters. He also called for a 50% reduction in the Tomahawk cruise missile.

And during the same campaign, according to the Boston Globe, Kerry also advocated reductions in the M-1 Abrams tank, the Bradley Fighting Vehicle and the F-16 jet.

Yes soem of the no votes were because of pork and sum were to just reduce the deficit spendding.BUT HARDLY ALL and he was against most all of them either by vote or by his own mouth.

Yes its misleadding to just say Kerry voted against this without an explanation but when he says flat out he is against these programs and has admited to wanting to gut our intel then its still just that. ANTI defense and anti stop more 9/11's.It was intel failures that got us 9/11, we do not need to cut intel but increase it.

the tacing on of other bills always causes problems in an overall vote but that does not change the fact he said he was against them.Its a nice excuse but whenhe says it himself, the excuse holds no water.If its deficits you want cut, then take on the pork and subsidies alone not everything at once.

Read all about it;http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=147

Bush is no freind to veterans either but we once again are faced with to bad chices and having to decide which lesser of two evils to take.:cry

[Dumbie]

You know, this whole argument is foolish when both side and a blind guy could see that we had enough weapons to blow the place up. We also had the wrong weapons and strategic plan for a new century of religious warriors. I doubt very much that anyone outside the construction districts that were building Bloatware bombers and missiles were interested in funding them. OK here we are in a war with ants, and now we discover the choppers can’t fly and the new choppers would be redundant after spending $8 billion in R&D. Will we let the records of chopper failure speak for themselves, or crucify the politician who votes against them?

Kerry said he will stand by his record, lets see if he can? The Republicans certainly can’t stand behind the neglect experienced through 80’s-early 90’s by our troops. If they try to demonstrate that they are tough on defend but cheap on defense spending the contradiction will bury them. If they claim they’re liberal on defense spending the Conservative’s will see that they’ve been sold a blindfold. Either way Dumbush looses a segment of the war monger crowd.

The Sheeple will draw the conclusion that either God’s not telling Dumbush what to do, he’s not listening to God, or Dumbush is incompetent and a segment of that voting block will vote for Pat Robinson or Mel Gibson.

The Kennedy Clan will prove that Dumbush is a Nazi

The Scientists will prove Dumbush is a Martian.

The Firemen will see the Burning Dumbush and grab their zippers.

The general public will want to know why the media didn’t tell them the Dumbush was and AWOL coward.

And by November Dumbush will be back in Crawford giving sermons on Mt. Cowpatty. :clap

[Ateo]

Originally posted by DEAD ZONE
Yes its misleadding to just say Kerry voted against this without an explanation but when he says flat out he is against these programs and has admited to wanting to gut our intel then its still just that. ANTI defense and anti stop more 9/11's.It was intel failures that got us 9/11, we do not need to cut intel but increase it.He wanted to cut intel funding in 1995 for waste reasons. How on earth do you correlate that to him wanting to gut intel in 2004, especially after 9/11? You're speculating based on paranoia again. Kerry is not stupid. He was in the military, he is not anti-military. He would not just gut intel funding for the joy of it, like some insane vehement left-wing extremist. Use your noggin, use reason. Calm down, take a deep breath.

[DEAD ZONE]

Originally posted by tigsnort
He wanted to cut intel funding in 1995 for waste reasons. How on earth do you correlate that to him wanting to gut intel in 2004, especially after 9/11? You're speculating based on paranoia again. Kerry is not stupid. He was in the military, he is not anti-military. He would not just gut intel funding for the joy of it, like some insane vehement left-wing extremist. Use your noggin, use reason. Calm down, take a deep breath.

Define waist tig. Nice word but what he wanted to cut was not waist at all.

Thats whatthey said about Carter but we see different dont we. Electronic s is not the answer to everything. We need on the ground as well. He was in the military not by wilful choice. His draft number was about to come up and he joined the navy in hopes of staying in a swift boat. Theyw ere not seeing any action. he ended up patroling the rivers anyway and got out as fast as he could.

[King Solomon]

Originally posted by DEAD ZONE

Define waist tig...

Hey tig, isn't that the part of the body just above the hips? :smash :lol :lol :p

[Ateo]

Hog all the easy answers why don't you King! :)

DZ: read again
The Air Force's National Reconnaissance Office had appropriated that much money to operate a spy satellite that, as things turned out, it never launched. So the Senate passed an amendment rescinding the money—not to cancel a program, but to get a refund on a program that the NRO had canceled. Kerry voted for the amendment, as did a majority of his colleagues.

[aclu14]

I think DZ's face turns red like this: :mad and then he is completely unable to type coherent words, like this:


Originally posted by DEAD ZONEDefine waist tig. Nice word but what he wanted to cut was not waist at all.

Thats whatthey said about Carter but we see different dont we. Electronic s is not the answer to everything. We need on the ground as well. He was in the military not by wilful choice. His draft number was about to come up and he joined the navy in hopes of staying in a swift boat. Theyw ere not seeing any action. he ended up patroling the rivers anyway and got out as fast as he could.

[DustyBottoms]

Originally posted by tigsnort
Hog all the easy answers why don't you King! :)

DZ: read again


A voting record consists of more than one vote.

I'll gladly give you this one.

The rest will bury Kerry.

heh heh..:)

[Ateo]

Originally posted by DustyBottoms


A voting record consists of more than one vote.

I'll gladly give you this one.

The rest will bury Kerry.

heh heh..:) If there's any meat to them, yes.

If you expect to win on Kerry votes presented out of context, then no.

Bush will be smushed. :)

[w1che]

Please don't make fun of DZ'S typing skills. He is the only person I've seen that makes me feel good about not proof reading my post and then going back later & seeing typo's.. :lol

DZ may well be blind or doesn't know where the edit button is.. :wink Could be.. :question

[DEAD ZONE]

Originally posted by King Solomon


Hey tig, isn't that the part of the body just above the hips? :smash :lol :lol :p And just above the part you all think with

[Ateo]

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4509529/

In terms of accuracy, the parry by the president is about half right. Bush is correct that Kerry on Sept. 29, 1995, proposed a five-year, $1.5 billion cut to the intelligence budget. But Bush appears to be wrong when he said the proposed Kerry cut -- about 1 percent of the overall intelligence budget for those years -- would have "gutted" intelligence. In fact, the Republican-led Congress that year approved legislation that resulted in $3.8 billion being cut over five years from the budget of the National Reconnaissance Office -- the same program Kerry said he was targeting.


The $1.5 billion cut Kerry proposed represented about the same amount Sen. Arlen Specter (R-Pa.), then chairman of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, told the Senate that same day he wanted cut from the intelligence spending bill based on unspent, secret funds that had been accumulated by one intelligence agency "without informing the Pentagon, CIA or Congress." The NRO, which designs, builds and operates spy satellites, had accumulated that amount of excess funds.


Now, Bush's attempts to mischaracterize the truth could work, unless Kerry responds strongly and clearly. He's got the truth on his side.

The truth is to Bush as kryptonite is to Superman.

[RubberDucky]

I just want to say, Kerry's friendship with Fonda should be of no consequence. I'm friends with many Republicans, but this doesn't mean I agree with their support of Bush.

Kerry did his service and demonstrated his loyalty to his country. It is not illegal to voice one's opinions in this country, only to act upon these opinions in a fashion that is negative to the country. To deny this fact would be to favor reactionary politics and a system similar to Bismarckian Germany, or to favor a policy of McCarthyism. In my personal opinion he did the best thing possible: entered politics to act upon his opinions democratically and work against similar situations in the future.