Missle Defense System

[cleoeo]

Now we've got Rumsfeld blathering about building a viable anti-missle system for defense against rogue nations, and otherwise perfectly intelligent people taking the whole idea seriously (Clinton, Gore, Bush, and Cheney included). Might as well build a Great Wall out of cash. Those rogue nations aren't going to build a missle delivery system for their future nuclear or biological weapons, they're going to bring them in on a boat or plane and detonate them. Look what they did to a billion dollar warship with no more complex system than a rubber raft! There ought to be a law against bilking the taxpayers out of billions of dollars by promising a defense system that will never work. Talk about rogues!

[paulgro]

You're right! It's called jobs. These systems never work because it's impossible to stop every missle from striking. We were going to spend a fortune on Star Wars which wouldn't work either.

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The Tired Coffee Man

Save the money. Eliminate the rogue nations then theres no missile defense systems to be built. Simple. http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/tongue.gif

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Co-Owner
Bueno Technologies

[Serendipity]

Ah yes. Defence philosophy. The best form of defence is attack. The most important element of attack is surprise. So...

[Lis]

*pounces on Dipy and pies his face* ummm surprise???

[Serendipity]

She DOES love me! I'm a lucky guy, even if I'm a lucky guy with sticky all over my face!

Back to defense, a tangent: we had an excellent TV satire show here a few years back, "Spitting Image", with loads of puppets made up to look like politicians, celebs, etc. One had Gorbachev phoning Reagan with a new word, after Glasnost and Perestroika. The word was something like Roshtokov. Reagan was incensed, and got his defense staff to come up with some words to describe US policy. Came the press announcement: "We're continuing our strategy of Mom's Apple Pie and Yankee Doodle Dandy!"

[Lis]

*lol* I thought that was a pretty mean thing to do myself http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif But yeah yur not bad *grinz* heheheh http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/wink.gif

[Serendipity]

*whispers to Lis* Watch what you're saying Lis. You'll have all the DL sisterhood on your back asking you what you mean, and then saying what a stinky arse I am and all that, and you know why? The green-eyed monster.

[Lis]

*LMAO* hehehe oh yeah...what AM I thinking??? *giggles*

*ahem* I mean....Dipy...you smell!!! *whispers* better???

[Serendipity]

*whispers to Lis* Yeah, that should keep 'em off your back. I'm all for feminine solidarity but there is a limit; we all gotta have a little fun in our lives, yeah?

*out loud* Whaddayamean, I smell?!?
*squirts aerosol cream over Lis*

[Lis]

*whispers* yeah I get ya http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/wink.gif fun is my middle name http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/wink.gif I seem to have a few now (middle names) *grinz*

*out loud* I mean you smell! Duh!
*hoses Dipy* take a bath!

http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/wink.gif

[Serendipity]

*whispers to Lis* Shame about the cuddling/other side of the world business. The fact that I'm old enough to be your father is a bit weird, too. You prolly worked out I'm fairly smart, but some things I just don't intellectualise.

*out loud* You gonna make me?!?

*pushes Lis down slippery bank into muddy pool, laughs at her cute grubby face*

[Serendipity]

*looks around* I think we may have the place to ourselves. http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif
*grabs hose and threatens Lis with it*
*playfully, of course* http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/wink.gif

hmmmmmm

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Co-Owner
Bueno Technologies

[Lis]

*whispers* yeah I noticed that too http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/wink.gif Ahhh well, it's a crazy world http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif

*out loud* yeah I'll make ya! You bet I'll make ya! Infact lemme show ya how I make ya
*wipes mud of my face and rubs it in Dipy's hair*
ha! Now you'll have to take a bath or everyone'll laugh at ya! http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/tongue.gif hehehehe

*ahem* ahhh Hi there Jeff http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif

[paulgro]

Wasn't this about missle defense??? http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/confused.gif

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"I have not failed. I've just found
10,000 ways that won't work."

[Idnew]

Hmmmmmmmm *tapping foot with very serious look on her face*

I think defense is sorta being discussed but not as was first brought up. http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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[Serendipity]

*whispers to Lis* Sh! Did you hear something?

[Lis]

*nods at Dipy* a very familiar nagging sound....who is that??? *grinz*

[Lis]

*pssst* Dipy! I've gotta pop out for a couple weeks....so have that mud ready for my return! *grinz*

*out loud* oh you smell so much that I'm leaving! *giggles* heheh http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/wink.gif

[Serendipity]

*whispers* well you know by now we have a much better place to go, all the mud you could wish for...

[cleoeo]

I should have known as soon as I posted under "politics" that someone would start slinging mud.

I did some research on the "Patriot" anti-missile missiles in the Gulf War. It turns out the military press releases about them knocking out the incoming Scuds were about as accurate as the patriot missiles themselves. It's now estimated that they were 30% effective. The "smart" bombs did work, but those were offensive weapons, not defensive interceptors.

[Serendipity]

The first casualty of war...

[~wildangel~]

hmmmmm....this thread has been very interesting!
It's always nice to know that when you dont watch soap operas you get to READ them http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/wink.gif

[Serendipity]

Yes, erm, well, -*ahem*- *buttons up shirt, brushes hair, etc*, we're trying to get back on topic...

[Lis]

*walks in the door and see's wild* ahhhhh *goes red* oh this is the Misile Defence System room....heheheh http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/eek.gif silly me.....

[~wildangel~]

*LOL*
Ya guys are so silly! http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/s/asian/parrowstar.gif

[Lis]

*grinz* we try http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/wink.gif hehehe

[Idnew]

Just a suggestion here. On serious topics could you please try to keep it serious just in case somebody would really like to discuss this topic. Thanks I'd appreciate it. http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif

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[Serendipity]

That's a good idea Id, and I know I'm as guilty as anyone of not being serious. The whole thing of Bush's missile plans are only starting now to really hit in over here, and it seems like a daft scheme. Who's the enemy? Who are the US defending themselves against? Who's going to be declared the next "Evil Empire" to justify this policy from an administration which, if it carries on the way it's started, will be memorable only for its lack of imagination?

[This message has been edited by Serendipity (edited February 04, 2001).]

[cleoeo]

You ARE NOT going to believe this, Dippy, but a while back the military aerospace industry was so desperate to justify spending a bazillion dollars on Star Wars anti-missile interceptor technology that they seriously presented the following argument to the American public:

Eventually an errant asteroid will cross the Earth's path, impact our planet, and cause an Armegedon like situation. The impact of a one-mile diameter meteor would cause blah blah darkness blah cold . . .
The answer is to build an interceptor system to knock such a threat off course with a nuclear blast, avoiding colision and the resulting blah blah darkness blah cold . . .
We have the technology, what we need is Federal funding to build a viable system blah . . .
They finally gave up and just backed both Bush and Gore in the recent election. The West Coast's technology industries need these Federal dollars to maintain their profits. It just doesn't matter if the projects are worth a dang or even dangerously unstabilizing. They NEED THE MONEY.

[Serendipity]

What's sad, Cleoeo, is that I do believe it, quite easily. So it's asteroids now? As you probably know, in so many million years from now the sun is going to expand (red giant) and destroy the earth and every other planet, either directly or by its subsequent shrinkage and lack of gravitational pull. I wish I could be around to see how folks deal with that!

I don't want to sound like a Heaven's Gate lunatic, but I reckon that if an asteroid hit, it'd be a good thing in the long run. Life would carry on, but hopefully we'd be wiped out. What's very scary about what you say is that if they said an asteroid WAS coming, how would most of us know if it's true? We'd have to take their word for it. They're not too easy for JQ Public to spot, these asteroids. Takes a powerful telescope.

[Lis]

Right, well I spose it's my duty to inform them that at some stage in the very distant future a devil-type, supernatural mutant monster thingy MIGHT be intent on eating the worlds population and so I think it's only rational that we spend ALL government funding on an anti-devil-type,supernatural mutant monster thingy machine just incase that ever happens.....makes sence to me ! http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

[Serendipity]

Editorial from The Guardian, 12th March 2001:

Rogue states of America
Why Bush needs the bad guys

US presidents have always had a penchant for bogeymen. Such personifications of evil make a complex world easier to explain to American voters, and they provide moral underpinning for actions subsequently taken in US interests. Thus in recent years Iran’s Ayatollah Khomeini, Libya’s Colonel Gadafy, Panama’s Manuel Noriega, Haiti’s Raoul Cedras and Serbia’s Slobodan Milosovic have all been cast in the role of bad guy. Top of the current bogeymen charts is the ever menacing Saddam Hussein, with a lifetime’s achievement award going to Cuba’s Fidel Castro.

During the Clinton presidency, the bogey concept broadened to include entire countries, known as “rogue states”. Former secretary of state Madeleine Albright, trying to be diplomatic, changed this to “states of concern”. But the rogues are back with a vengeance. Twice in the past fortnight President George Bush has highlighted the threat to the US posed by “rogue nations”, thereby further expanding the definition to embrace whole peoples and not just their governments. To qualify for such pariah status, a nation must actively support terrorism, be building nuclear or other weapons of mass destruction, or be busy exporting the same to suspicious customers. Top of Mr Bush’s list are North Korea, Iran, Libya and, of course, Iraq.

Rogue nations, it is already clear, are the cornerstone of Mr Bush’s otherwise still unstable foreign and security edifice. On their shifty shoulders rests the entire raison d’être of national missile defence (NMD). Dubya may have little or no idea what to do about Ariel Sharon or Japan’s economic crisis, but he is absolutely certain of one thing: those missiles are essential to deter the rogues. The distorting effect of this puerile thinking was on display in Washington last week, when, to secretary of state Colin Powell’s evident discomfiture, Mr Bush told South Korea’s President Kim Dae-jung he was ending the policy of engagement and negotiation with the Pyongyang regime pursued by Bill Clinton.

Even though Mr Kim, a key US ally, is desperate to advance the dialogue begun at last year’s historic summit with Kim Jong-il, and even though the future of the deprived, half-starved northern population depends on his success, Mr Bush said bluntly that he did not trust North Korea and effectively pulled the plug on détente. Pyongyang now warns that may be forced to resume building nukes and missiles. To which Mr Bush and his hawkish advisors smilingly reply: all the more reason to build NMD!

There is a cynical pattern to be discerned here. While the Clinton administration made tentative gestures towards Iran, Mr Bush’s people demonise Tehran as recipient and purveyor of threatening weapons and policies. Iran’s internal struggle between reformers and the forces of clerical reaction is ignored; the obvious need of embattled President Mohammed Khatami, facing elections this June, to be able to demonstrate the benefits of his guarded opening to the west goes unrecognised. An opportunity exists to end Iran’s isolation that may soon be lost. But what does Mr Bush do? Instead of offering a hand he cries “mad mullahs!” and demands more missiles.

There is another way, if Mr Bush would only look. Britain and many EU countries are working hard to develop links with North Korea, Iran and Libya. Most also now agree that endless, thoughtless ostracism of the Iraqi nation is no longer a viable policy. So why not stop posturing and start talking? Because Mr Bush wants his missiles. And to get his missiles, the president needs rogues.

[End of article]

Comments?

[Ada_Doom]

AAAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHH! Stupid stupid stupid &%$§"(/ piles of POO!!!!!
God that made me angry.
W**k*r!!!!!!!
Raaaaaah!
I think a quote is in order here:
"They've got stategic ICBM's both theatre and tactical,
And independently targettted multiple re-entry vehicles,
Backfire bombers,polaris subs, cruise missiles and the boys,
Who hang around the Pentagon can't wait to use these toys."
The MDS is not a !%!%!%!%!% extending status symbol like a Ferrari or something, it could bring about WW3 and possibly the end of the planet. Has it not occurred to Mr Bush that foreign affairs is not a good place to adopt a bull in a chinashop policy? If you're going to be the so-called "leader of the free world" you have to act a bit more responsibly, and think less about your personal image, and more about what is good for the planet as a whole! I cannot BELIEVE the man is such a ... a ... a ... GIBBON!!!!!!!!! (No offence to the gibbon population)
I think I'd better go and stick my head in a bucket of cold water to stop the steam coming out of my ears.......
Tsssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss sssssssssssssssssssssssssssss.
That's better.


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Cake or death?

[CBranski]

Call me paranoid, but the threat I believe the US faces is not from a nuclear missle being launched (I truly believe the doctrine of MAD-Mutually Assured Destruction-is kept in the back of the minds of even the most despotic leaders) but from a chemical attack.

The technology exists to where dangerous chemical weapons could be easily hidden in suitcases and flown in on commercial flights. Getting through US Customs at a major airport is not that difficult if you know the right answers; and thus the destruction of many lives can be picked off a baggage carousel on the way to the Hertz counter. Such products are easy to manufacture (As demonstrated by Saddam Hussein) and pose more of a threat than nuclear weapons.

Keep in mind that most US cities are woefully unprepared for such an attack. Notwithstanding, a "Star Wars" type initiative will do little to stop the very domestic threats that face many US neighborhoods today...

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"Every Man a King, But No One Wears a Crown."
"If You Can't Beat Them, Arrange to Have Them Beaten."

[Serendipity]

So a rogue state could attempt to destroy the US and NMD would be tactically useless? Ah well.

[Ada_Doom]

"Getting through US customs...is not that difficult if you know the right answers"... which in itself is not difficult, because who in their right mind would stand there and say "yes, I am a terrorist, I have 300kg of semtex in my suitcase, and I'm here to blow up the president on behalf of my Palestinian brothers." http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Cake or death?

[Serendipity]

Mind you, CB, with all due respect I shall call you paranoid. I don't think there's too many of these rogue states who want to bring down the US. A few lunatic fringe groups maybe.

[CBranski]

Perhaps I didn't make this clear in my previous post, but I'm not too frightened by "rogue states" either-the fringe groups are somewhat worrisome. While they can't bring down the whole nation, they can certainly cause problems with biological agents in chosen locations. I'm not saying we as a nation need to quiver in fear, but what i am saying is that such things are far more worrisome than a nuclear launch. A similiar attack occured on the Tokyo subway system a while back, and that city's hardly a hotbed of violence.

In American cities, I am also cognizant of the fact that any sort of terror will probably come from life long residents, not a foreign threat. I just think that the scenario I mentioned in my previous post is more worth mentioning than the possibility of a nuclear attack.

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"Every Man a King, But No One Wears a Crown."
"If You Can't Beat Them, Arrange to Have Them Beaten."

[Ada_Doom]

I suppose I only mentioned the nuclear threat, because it scares me so much, and I have absolutely NO faith that some of these nutters won't manage to convince themselves that they are indestructible, and set the things off in a fit of misguided self-importance. On a day to day level, though, you are right CB. Terrorists are a much bigger threat - mainly beacuse there are so many different groups, even just under the umbrella of one "cause" - look at N. Ireland!

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Cake or death?

[cleoeo]

The more complex a system is the more prone it is to human error. Even if a viable missile defense system were technically feasible (it isn't) or potentially useful against "rouge nations" (no), it would still have to be operated by people. We recently had a state-of-the-art nuclear submarine operated by a top notch crew somehow manage to crash into a large fishing boat in open waters. I've got a $100 fish locator that would have spotted the darn thing.

[Idnew]

I'm impressed. A topic that got back on topic. Good job. http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif

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(ö¿ö)Too Many Freaks, Not Enough Circuses(ô¿ô)

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[Scotslaw]

Originally posted by Serendipity:
So it's asteroids now? As you probably know, in so many million years from now the sun is going to expand (red giant) and destroy the earth and every other planet, either directly or by its subsequent shrinkage and lack of gravitational pull. I wish I could be around to see how folks deal with that!

Actually, there is a plan to deal with that!!! Scientists intend to harness a large comet, change it's orbit so that it travils in an elipse round the sun, passing quite close to the earth. The gravity from the fast moving coment will drag the earth out of its present orbit, into a wider orbit, so that as the sun expands, we still remain in a temperate zone. This process will need to be repeated every 6000 years. The downside of it is if we get the calculations wrong, the comet smashes into the earth and wipes us all out.

I kid you not. True story. Wait until you hear the plan they have to sort out the problem of the moon which is drifting further and further away from the earth....

[Scotslaw]

Originally posted by Ada_Doom:
"Getting through US customs...is not that difficult if you know the right answers"... which in itself is not difficult, because who in their right mind would stand there and say "yes, I am a terrorist, I have 300kg of semtex in my suitcase, and I'm here to blow up the president on behalf of my Palestinian brothers." http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/biggrin.gif



Another slightly off topic post, but I'd just like to say that I love those little immigration cards I have to fill out on the plane before entering the US. My favourite question is "Have you ever been convicted of war crimes by the Nuremberg Tribunal?" Let me think about that one......

Of course, even better is the statement that answering yes to any of these questions will not necessarilly prevent you from entering the United States.

So if I admitted to being a drug dealing, twice convicted murdering terrorist, armed to the teeth and carrying bombs, who had also been convicted of war crimes at Nuremberg, I'd still be let in? Might try that next time....

[Ada_Doom]

LOL @ Scotslaw http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Cake or death?

[Phreakmeister]

Originally posted by Scotslaw
Actually, there is a plan to deal with that!!! Scientists intend to harness a large comet, change it's orbit so that it travils in an elipse round the sun, passing quite close to the earth. The gravity from the fast moving coment will drag the earth out of its present orbit, into a wider orbit, so that as the sun expands, we still remain in a temperate zone. This process will need to be repeated every 6000 years. The downside of it is if we get the calculations wrong, the comet smashes into the earth and wipes us all out.

The plan is even better: in order to guide comets away from a collision course with planet earth, scientists have raised the option of painting/spraying the comet white, so that it will absorb more heat of the sun and will thus be guided off collision course.
Imagine a shuttle crew going on a highly important mission... to paint a comet white...

[aclu14]

:lol

[nacho cheese]

painting/spraying the comet white, so that it will absorb more heat of the sun and will thus be guided off collision course.
Wouldn't it work better if we painted the comet in black, because it absorbs all wave-lenghts. As you know the radiation/emission the Sun sends includes all wave-lenghts.

[AWPrime]

Scientist have created a computer program that calculates how to redirect a asteroid to the earth.

The program provides the places and times people need to activate the dozen small nukes needed.

This will allow any terrorist with a dozen nukes to 'totally' destroy any country (if he can hit it without hitting himself).

[Phreakmeister]

Originally posted by nacho cheese

Wouldn't it work better if we painted the comet in black, because it absorbs all wave-lenghts. As you know the radiation/emission the Sun sends includes all wave-lenghts.

It wouldn't work, because black is colour-neutral, so to speak. A black body is one which emits and absorbs radiation of all frequencies equally well. The course of comet, asteroid, planetoids, etc. is determined by its speed in relation to the gravity of objects it passes. That speed is determined partly by the temperature of the comet, from which it draws the energy. The more energy (read: solar heat) the comet absorbs, the higher the temperature, which changes its course. Most energy is absorbed by the colour white. Therefore it is necessary to paint the comet white, so as to change its energy absorption, thus changing the course of the comet.

Other than that, comets already are brown or near black. Painting it black (why do I think of the Rolling Stones here?) would not make as much difference to the course of the comet as painting it white would make.