Terrorism

[Phreakmeister]

First of all I wanna say, to prevent angry reactions, that I highly disagree with Al Qaeda, Taliban, and other fundamentalist islamic movements.

But one thing surprises me about the American anti-terrorist actions. And that is this:

The official definition of a terrorist, according to the U.S. government, is "anyone who opposes the US, the US government, and/or the American Way of Life"

This definition makes socialists out here in Europe, Greenpeace, anti-capitalist demonstrators (even the peaceful ones), and lots of other similar people terrorists.......

So next time you drive past a McDonalds, remember, that by not eating there, you oppose the American Way of Life, which makes you a terrorist.........

[Serendipity]

Hi there Phreakmeister http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif , where'd you get that definition from?

[Phreakmeister]

I don't have a URL to give u right away, but this was in a statement made by the US Government. I think it was Rumsfeld who said all this.

But anyway, as I said, it was in an official statement made by the US Government.

[Lis]

Well gee they thought that through well http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

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[paulgro]

I didn't hear that, but if it was said you have to know that one man does not speak for the entire US government. Doesn't work that way...

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[ogb]

Also haven't heard of any definition yet. But the organised and violent anti-capitalist demonstrators are terrorists IMO.

[Phreakmeister]

I've been surfing the web, and here are some sites I came up with:
http://www.watchmanjournal.org/000273.html http://www.acm.org/usacm/terrorist-memo.html http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,48807,00.html http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,487098,00.html

[Idnew]

I haven't checked out all your links yet but will when I get the time. Here is an excerpt which is only a letter.
October 2, 2001
To: Members of the U.S. Congress, Congressional Internet Caucus
Fr: U.S. Policy Committee of the Association for Computing Machinery (USACM)
Contact: Jeff Grove, Director of Technology Policy, USACM, (202) 659-9711
Re: Draft Anti-terrorism legislation, Title III, Subtitle A, Section 309

The draft version of the anti-terrorism legislation presented to Congress by the Attorney General contains several provisions to extend the definition of terrorism to acts currently considered vandalism or "ordinary" criminal behavior, and possibly to innocent behavior by scientists and technicians. Among these are acts specific to computing systems, covered under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act (18 U.S.C. 1030, et seq.). We strongly advise you resist these extensions of the law. Although it may be tempting to consider what potential terrorists may do and include all of those possibilities within revised laws, there are many problems with such an action.
Like I said will check out the rest, but as Paul said, one person is not always the voice of the people and haven't found your original difination you stated.

BTW Welcome to dumblaws

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Mr. Meister, I think that you are taking the interpretation of that quote too far. In fact, the American way of life is the freedom to choose whether or not to pull into a McDonald's. If someone was to force you to pull into the McDonald's, or forbid you from doing so, then that would interfere with the American way of life.

[Phreakmeister]

I presume mr. Disconnected is American?

Idnew:
I know that what I said isn't on there. I can read perfectly well. All that these sites indicate, is the strange way the U.S. Government looks at terrorism. And that's what I wanted to show with these links. But I'll keep on searching for a site with the official U.S. anti-terrorism statement. But untill then, you'll just have to do it with the links I've given you

Idnew:
I know that one voice isn't the voice of the entire people. But I never said that that way of looking at terrorism is the way the U.S. people look at terrorism. I clearly stated, that it was the view of the U.S. Government.

[Phreakmeister]

Well, I told you I'd have the proof. Well, here it is.
There is one better way of proving policy than by showing quotes of politicians. That way is legislation. In this case the U.S.A. P.A.T.R.I.O.T. ACT. Well, see for yourselves.
http://www.aclu.org/congress/l102301h.html http://www.aclu.org/congress/l100801f.html

[Idnew]

Those links were put out by the ACLU Org. I personally don't see anything wrong with USA-PATRIOT ACT. Should have been made a long time ago. Too many terriorists are here and it took a tragedy to get some action. If they have to prove their innocent it shouldn't be too hard if they are. I say better safe than once again we might be sorry.

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[~wildangel~]

I'm with you Id...

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[Phreakmeister]

Idnew:
So you are not willing to see how biased the US justice is?

If I, as a Dutchman, go to the US, for whatever reason, and I criticize the US government there, that even makes me a terrorist, according to that law. And trying to prove innocence against bias is harder than you may think. And I'm not even muslim, nor Arab, nor black. I'm a white Saxon (can't help it, it's just the way I was born).

There have been cases in the US of people being kicked off of college for wearing a T-shirt saying "Anti-Bush, Anti-Bin Laden". This penalty was even confirmed by the Supreme Court. Now you try to tell me that it's easy to prove my innocence.

[Sjax]

In a democracy no one should prove their innocence. We are all innocent till proven guilty.
If i'm not mistaking 280 million people live in USA. It would be impossible to check what all of those people are up to. One of the things that made the terrible attack the 11th of september possible was that the ones who committed the crime was living like average americans. Therefore noone suspected them.
Dont you think future terrorists (God forbid) would do the same thing. They are not so stupid that they wear anti-american t-shirts or behave anti-american in general.
Im with Phreakmeister on this one.

[aclu14]

Answer me this: What is the American way of life, defined?

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[cleoeo]

Jees. We've got American politicians saying asinine things all the time. That doesn't make it official American policy. If anyone introduced a bill in Congress saying that:

"The official definition of a terrorist, according to the U.S. government, is "anyone who opposes the US, the US government, and/or the American Way of Life"

They'd be labelled a McCarthyist and villifyed in the press.

[Phreakmeister]

Cleoeo:

I know there are a lotta Bills, and I know that there are a lotta "sick" Bills amongst them. But there's a difference between a Bill and a Law. This is not a Bill anymore, this is an official Law. The Law is called: "Uniting and Strengthening America Act by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism (USA PATRIOT Act).

So you think they would be labelled as McCarthyists? Well, think again. Just like in the days of McCarthy we're living in a state of war. In the days of McCarthy, television stations were afraid to criticize him, out of the fear to be called 'communists' themselves. Here, in the days of patriottism, television stations are afraid to give every side of the story. I can't help it, it's just the way it is. Do you think that what we saw on television of the Gulf War really happened? Sure, it happened, but it was enacted. It is called propaganda. The Nazi's used it, the Soviets used it, the Iraqi government uses it, but so does the U.S. Government. I can't help it, I can't change it, things are the way they are.

These are not the times to be critical. Neither for politicians not for the press.

[Phreakmeister]

ACLU14:

There is no single definition of 'The American Way of Life'. That is due to the fact that there are several ways of looking at the US of A.

For communists, 'The American Way of Life' would be exploiting the environment, lots of influence from the church, a lack of solidarity, an overdose of luxury, a lack of knowledge of the world outside the borders, capitalism and big corporations.

For American patriots, 'The American Way of Life' would be freedom, democracy, human rights, values and principles, righteousness, etc.

All the above things, from whatever side of the political spectrum, are not, and I repeat, are NOT my personal opinions on the US. They are ways of looking at the US, from different perspectives, and the way people think of the US.
It is due to these varying opinions on the US, that it is not possible to give a clear definition of the American Way of Life.

The War Against Terrorism :: TWAT

[Idnew]

Welcome Bob

Idnew:
So you are not willing to see how biased the US justice is?


You know I really don't care how biased we are. If you came here to critize the government(which we all do) then why come? You know if America is so bad then stay in your own country is my opinion. If I have problems with another country, I don't think I would go there. I mean why the h*ll does everybody want to move here or sneak in here if it's so bad anyway?

Why did Sept 11th happen? Jealousy?
http://www.boomspeed.com/idnew/Usa.gif
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[This message has been edited by Idnew (edited January 07, 2002).]

[Sjax]

Originally posted by Idnew:
You know if America is so bad then stay in your own country is my opinion. If I have problems with another country, I don't think I would go there.


Idnew: You are right about that we just can stay out of the USA if we dont like your system.
I, personally, could never see myself live in a country like USA, so I wont.
I dont want to live in China, Israel, Singapore, Japan (etc. etc.) either, so I wont.
Therefore it is none of my business how you choose to do things.
I agree with you on that. BUT when the US government do that imperialistic police-man-of-the-world thing, then it is my business, because then it gets outside the US borders.

[paulgro]

If we don't police the world we get criticized for that!! Now what???

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[TV_Guy]

Idnew: I don't think the idea of the thread was to criticise America, you're misinterprating.

These bills do affect us outside the states as well, we do have to be concerned about what classifies as a terrorist and what the American Govt is allowing itself to do. I personally don't like many of the American Governements policies does that make me a threat if I decide to visit New York? I also don't like what liberties they take internationally. But in the same token my own Govt makes many of the same decisions.

I'd just be wary of what bills they slip through in the wake of the NY treajedy.

Originally posted by Phreakmeister:


The official definition of a terrorist, according to the U.S. government, is "anyone who opposes the US, the US government, and/or the American Way of Life"

You know why you haven't found proof yet? There is none. This is not the official definition of a terrorist according to the U.S. government. In fact, no politician said those exact words. I do remember Donald Rumsfeld saying something to the effect of "terrorists are generally opposed to the American way of life." Of course, this was simply his opinion. And interpret it any way you will, but by American way of life, Rumsfeld meant freedom of choice yada yada yada.

[Lis]

Just wanted to confirm that America's actions effect the rest of us a great deal, something along the lines of....if you're not with us, you're against us.....comes to mind. Not a direct quote I assure you, but it was Bushy's general gist.

With a wanker PM like Australia's we're subject to doing most anything America requires of us....not saying we dont want to help, or that we entirely disagree with the USA....I can't speak for Australia, but it would be nice to have an option on such matters as who we're gonna send of to war and for what reason...hence America does effect a great deal more people than those within it's borders.

[Phreakmeister]

Idnew:

First of all I wanna say that I'm not here to criticize the U.S. Government. I'm not fond of them, to say the least, but that's not why I'm here. I'm here for the dumb laws. But that doesn't prevent me from giving my opinion on things, such as this.

The things I'm saying here can be classified as being against the U.S. Government, at most against the system, but they're NOT against Americans. I think that a lotta good things came from the US, but that doesn't mean that we have to ignore all the bad things, which there are.
I personally come from the Netherlands, and although I like it here, I don't wanna say that it's perfect. Because it's not. Just like everyone on this messageboard, including you, have the right to discuss Dutch laws, I have the right to discuss American laws, legislation and jurisdiction.

I respect your opinions, and I don't wanna insult you in any way. Whatever I have to say about American legislation, is about American legislation, not about the Americans. And that is what this messageboard is here for: to discuss legislation throughout the world.

And just like several people mentioned before me: When it comes to the US interior policy, it's none of my business, and I can just stay out of the US. That's true. But when it comes to the US foreign policy, it does affect me.

[This message has been edited by Phreakmeister (edited January 08, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Phreakmeister (edited January 08, 2002).]

[Phreakmeister]

Idnew:

Another thing: September 11th didn't happen because of jealousy. It happened because of hatred against the US. And although the willingness to commit such horrible acts is not widespread throughout the muslim world, the hatred is.

Whatever you say about September 11th, it didn't happen because of jealousy. What happened was horrible, and it was a result of sick minds who stand alone in the actions, but they unfortunately do not stand alone in the hatred.

[TAHUTI]

Originally posted by Lis:
Just wanted to confirm that America's actions effect the rest of us a great deal, something along the lines of....if you're not with us, you're against us.....comes to mind. Not a direct quote I assure you, but it was Bushy's general gist.



I think, "You're either with us, or you are with the terrorists" is what Bush said.

[TV_Guy]

Lis: New Zealand's Government is the same way, committing troops to blow up one of the poorest countries in the world, and a great number of kiwis are against it. I'm sure many brits feel the same way, but Tony Blair is constantly repeating whatever George Bush says. Oh well thats politicians for you...

[Idnew]

So it was hatred so what caused the hatred? I'm still not clear on that one.

I don't know anything about the Dutch gov or the Australian gov or any country's gov for that matter so won't debate them, but I'm sure every country has some problems about the way their gov is run by their officials. But we elected them and if we don't like what their doing we can always un-elect them.

As for as us policing our country or the world, I'm glad it's getting back to that. I suppose if the other country's didn't want us in their country we wouldn't go. Obviously it's a unamious decision by the countries don't you think? Everything shut down here for awhile due to the fact we suddenly have idiots here from other countries that want to destroy us. Nobody was going to the malls or the amusement centers or anywhere after 9/ll. Now we go and we're searched before we can go in to an amusement center. That's fine with me. I'll strip if they want me to if it means some nut case won't get in. So if they have to do that to everyone coming into the USA then so be it. OK yeah we have a few inbreds here already like the stupid kid that flew the plane into a bank the other day.

The point is we are the strongest country and every other country seems to always want something from us, but the other point is, that all of us can live in harmony and without fear. We hopefully gave some of that back to Afganhastan(ok so I can't spell it).

Yes anyone on here may state their opinions. I won't be mad about it, I'm just stating mine which I normally stay out of these debates anyway. My dad was a WWII vet so it kinda gets to me when somebody wants to critize us when those men that fought that war that are still living would gladly go and fight today to give us our freedom.

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[This message has been edited by Idnew (edited January 08, 2002).]

They hate the U.S. because:

1) The U.S. supports Israel.

2) The U.S. sent troops to Saudi Arabia. At least that is why Osama has a thing against the U.S. The very idea of an army of a non-Islamic country on Islamic holy land infuriates Islamic extremists.

I know that they are at least the two main reasons.

[cleoeo]

I've searched the USA Patriot Act HR 3162RDS and can't find anything close to the definition of a "terrorist" that started this string. I still say it's not in there and never could be for reasons previously cited. It's just too vauge and stupid. It could easily be a Rumsfeld quote but it is NOT an Act of the US Congress.

[cleoeo]

Why is it that every time some extremist group commits a high profile act of terrorism against the US we get people who think it's indicative of widespread hatred? Osama Bin Laden is an outcast. The Saudis don't want him. The Afgannis don't want him. The Pakistanis don't want him. Western Nations want to string him up by his thumbs. Islamic Holy men denounce him. Buddhists are understandably upset with him. Jews hate him. Christians hate him. Athiests hate him. He's as likely to cause a Holy War by blowing up the World Trade Center as Timothy McVeigh was likely to start a revolution by blowing up the Murrow Federal Building. Misguided determined dangerous fanatics, both of them, but not World leaders politically, intellectually, or spiritually.

[Phreakmeister]

Our governments never asked the US troops here, the US invited itself here. And do you really think that the US is admired throughout the world? Well, think again.

What caused the hatred?
1) The hypocritical US foreign policy
2) The imperialism
3) The support for terrorist organizations (remember: it was the US who put the Taliban into power)


So you think that you can un-elect the electees. Well, that's what we've seen during the elections. You know, all the recounts and stuff. The result was that the candidate with the most votes lost, because of a decision of some judges. So it wasn't the American people who elected the president, it was a group of judges. Doesn't seem really democratic to me.

[Sjax]

Im getting kind of tired of hearing about everything getting compared to WW2

1: It is more than 50 years ago. The US CANNOT keep justifying every ambush they make on small countries by this.

2: there is a HUGE difference between WW2 and the wars the US has fought since. In ww2 the free world was threathened by the nazis and fascists who wanted to conquer the world. This has not been the case in other wars fought by the US. Neither Korea, Vietnam, Iraque, Serbia, Afghanistan or any other of the countries the US has fought wanted to conquer the world. And none of them has in any way been a direct threat to freedom and the american way of life.

The only country who want to conquer today is the US itselves, who want every country in the world to live like americans with capitalism and democracy. What if some countries dont want those things.
Ogb has stated earlier that quite a great amount of people in Berlin voted for the communists. Seems to me that those people arent very happy about the american way.

Originally posted by Phreakmeister:


Our governments never asked the US troops here, the US invited itself here.

What do you mean by "Our governments" and "invited itself here"?



What caused the hatred?
1) The hypocritical US foreign policy
2) The imperialism

Please specify what the US is doing that you consider hypocritical and imperialistic. I'm starting to have doubts that you even know what you are talking about. Just give me some examples.



3) The support for terrorist organizations (remember: it was the US who put the Taliban into power)

The Taliban is not a terrorist group. It is a regime. Secondly, the US did not put them into power. The Taliban was one of many tribes that fought the Soviets back in the 1980s. The US sent weapons to assist their cause. Pakistan was responsible for distributing the weapons. Pakistan gave most of the weapons to the Taliban since they had strong ties with each other. This gave the Taliban the edge it needed to gain control of most of Afghanistan from the other tribes.



So you think that you can un-elect the electees. Well, that's what we've seen during the elections. You know, all the recounts and stuff. The result was that the candidate with the most votes lost, because of a decision of some judges. So it wasn't the American people who elected the president, it was a group of judges. Doesn't seem really democratic to me.

Look up the electoral college.

Originally posted by Sjax:
Neither Korea, Vietnam, Iraque, Serbia, Afghanistan or any other of the countries the US has fought wanted to conquer the world. And none of them has in any way been a direct threat to freedom and the american way of life.

What are implying? That the US should not have intervened with North Vietnam invading South Vietnam, North Korea(and China) invading South Korea, Iraq invading Kuwait and possibly Saudi Arabia, Serbs murdering ethnic Albanians by the thousands?

Afghanistan(the Taliban) was a direct threat to the US. They were providing sanctuary to the people who wish to kill as many Americans as they could.

[Idnew]

Thank you Fop for your explanation and now since you seem to be quite the debater and know what your talking about I'm going to just sit back and watch this. Please keep it clean as it now is and no name calling.

[Idnew]

Sjax Im getting kind of tired of hearing about everything getting compared to WW2
1: It is more than 50 years ago. The US CANNOT keep justifying every ambush they make on small countries by this.

BTW I wasn't comparing WWII with what is going on today. Just saying America will fight if it's called for. And we didn't ambush Afganistan, we gave them plenty of warning and plenty of food. More than we got.


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[TV_Guy]

This is a pretty touchy subject, so I dont intend to anger anyone but here are two points that I think are true:

I don't hate america, but there IS widespread hate for America. Whether its jelousy, religous, whatever..there are millions who really dont like the states. Even if there goverments support the US there is many countries like indonesia, pakistan, iraq, china, with millions of people in that hate america.

Another thing a bit of the topic:

America is one of the most militant countries in the world. I saw a list of conflicts they've been involved in since WW2 the other day. America has been at war almost constantly with one or more parts of the world since WW2. This is probably another reason for the anti-america feeling. With that many conflicts, in a places all over the globe, US is sure to have ruffled feathers. And these aren't all peace-keeping missions either, some have questionable objectives.

[TV_Guy]

Also regarding the food drops,

1: They were similar in size, color, and shape to the unexploded cluster bombs that America was dropping. Kinda a health risk for children....

2: Not nearly enough food was dropped, Much needed food envoy's from Pakistan (I think it was pakistan, but dont qoute me) were stopped from entering Afghanistan, in case the Taleban got hold on the food.

3: The contents ... peanut butter?

I'm sure its improving now that there are land troops in.

Originally posted by TV_Guy:

some have questionable objectives.



Which ones would that be?

[Phreakmeister]

Fop:
Some examples of hypocrisy and imperialism:
The US government keeps on saying that countries should meet UN resolutions. Iraq and Yugoslavia felt the consequences. Both of those actions I can understand, don't get me wrong. However, there also is a UN resolution against Israel, saying that Israel has to abandon all the occupied areas. This resolution was adopted in 1948. Well, we're in 2002 now, but has the Israeli government met the resolution? No. And has it felt the consequences? Well, it has felt some consequences, but not from the UN or the US. The only response came from Hamas, Jihad and Hizbollah. In 1997 or 1998, the UN adopted a resolution against the death penalty, in whatever country. Thus one of the countries adressed was the US. Well, as far as I can see there still is a death penalty in the US.
So the US wants countries to live up to UN resolutions, and acts up to it when they don't, but when it comes to the US itself, or its allies, then all of a sudden there is no problem, and the UN should stop whining.

In 1952, Guatemala had democratically elected a president, who was very popular amongst the people. His name is/was Jacobo Arbenz Guzman. He was really working on developing the country. One of his plans in this process, was to put the main export product, bananas, on the free market. This meant, that Dole and Chiquita, two American companies lost their monopoly. So what did they do? They went to Washington, to complain. The result was, that the CIA removed the president, and put in place a puppet-president. Quite imperialistic it seems, doesn't it?

Or what about the CIA "impeaching" a democratically elected, popular leader like Salvador Allende in Chile, and replacing him with a mass murderer and a tyrant called Augusto Pinochet.

Now who doesn't know what he is talking about?


So Pakistan put the Taliban into power? So the CIA all of a sudden is Pakistani? Because it was the CIA who trained and equipped both the Taliban and Al-Qaeda.

By the way, the Taliban is NOT a tribe. Taliban means 'students'. The Taliban is a group of fundamentalist muslims. Most Taliban come from a tribe called the Pashtun, but that doesn't mean that every member of that tribe is a Taliban. Although the Republicans are in power in the US, it doesn't mean that every American is a Republican. Same thing.

If you had read my previous messages, you could have read that I'm European. Dutch, to be more precise. Europe was liberated by many nations. One of those nations was America. Of all the nations that liberated Europe (for which I'm deeply grateful to them, don't get me wrong), only one stayed here in The Netherlands. The Canadians left, just like the Australians, the British (although they remained in some parts of Austria and Germany), the French (same as the British), the Polish, they all liberated us, but all but America went back. And although we still are deeply grateful to the American soldiers for co-liberating us, we have gradually become a puppet of America. And I don't speak for myself, trust me. I know people, I know a lot of people, and noone is against the Americans, but they are all wary of an excessive influence of 'Americanism' put on us.

[Sjax]

First I wanna state one more time: I dont hate America. Im NOT anti-american. The americans I have met has been great people, I enjoy coming to this board and discuss various topics with all of you, no matter if you are american or european, i like american music and some american movies. I drink CocaCola etc.
But I dont like the american empiriralistic politics. I, too am european to those of you who dont know. Im danish.
Idnew: My complaint about the comparing everything to WW2 wasnt aimed at you. It just seems to come up everytime some critizises the US.
But you cant justify the attack on Afghanistan by saying that you warned them. In the Gulf War Iraque warned Kuwait before attacking them. Would you say that justified it??
FOP: Yes I am implying that you should stay out of Serbia and certainly out of Vietnam. That was none of your business. The results of both wars was that another thousands of innocent civilian died. Two wrongs doesnt make a right. And neither of the wars really helped, did they??
BTW the Vietnam war, as well as the Korean, is a good example of the US wanting to force the rest of the world to live like they do. They couldnt have communists conquering another country.

[paulgro]

There's a simple solution to all this. Stop banging on our doors asking for help and we won't go there. You want us to fight your wars and leave with nothing. It doesn't work that way. If we were as bad as everyone wants to think we would take what we want, but don't. So leave us alone and we'll do the same...

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http://www.un.org/documents/scres.htm

Well, I couldn't find any UN resolutions regarding the death penalty. Maybe I just missed it, but I seriously doubt there is one.

Originally posted by Phreakmeister:


In 1952, Guatemala had democratically elected a president, who was very popular amongst the people. His name is/was Jacobo Arbenz Guzman. He was really working on developing the country. One of his plans in this process, was to put the main export product, bananas, on the free market. This meant, that Dole and Chiquita, two American companies lost their monopoly. So what did they do? They went to Washington, to complain. The result was, that the CIA removed the president, and put in place a puppet-president. Quite imperialistic it seems, doesn't it?

The CIA removed Jacobo Arbenz Guzman because he was a communist. The end result was much worse than a banana monopoly. He was replaced by a dictatorship. This was done back in 1954.



Or what about the CIA "impeaching" a democratically elected, popular leader like Salvador Allende in Chile, and replacing him with a mass murderer and a tyrant called Augusto Pinochet.

It's a little more complicated than that.
http://www.geocities.com/educhile_1970s/index.html




So Pakistan put the Taliban into power? So the CIA all of a sudden is Pakistani? Because it was the CIA who trained and equipped both the Taliban and Al-Qaeda.

Look, the CIA provided weapons and training to every Islamic tribe in Afhganistan in the 1980s to fight the Soviets. Those tribes later fought each other for control of Afhganistan. The Taliban didn't even become as powerful as they did until the mid 1990s. The US did not put the Taliban in power.

Originally posted by Sjax:

BTW the Vietnam war, as well as the Korean, is a good example of the US wanting to force the rest of the world to live like they do. They couldnt have communists conquering another country.

The Vietnam war, as well as the Korean, is a good example of communists wanting to force the rest of the to live like they do. It was they who invaded in the first place.

[TV_Guy]

My last few posts didn't seem to come through.

But surely you cant believe that every conflict that US is involved in (And there is a few)is for Freedom or Stopping Communism or Protecting Innocent or Because we're all on our knees begging the US to help us....Really people!

Just like any other large country it is Protecting their Own Interests.

If we're going use WW2 examples: The US ONLY got involved when they were hammered at Pearl Harbor. The commonwealth and allies had been fighting long before.

If any other country was in US's position I'm sure they would act the same. Power corrupts a lotta people. Like it says on the banner above.

Big Governement, Small Brains, Dumb Laws.

Once again: Not against Americans, but I disagree pretty strongly with their International policies. Would I do much different...Probably not. http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif

[Sjax]

Paulgro: I have never banged on your door to have you come help us. I know that some countris do, and those countries arent better than the US. In the Serbia war noone called for you.

FOP: Why are you writing that Guzman was a communist. Do you think that him being a communist justifies the US removing him? He was elected democratically.
It seems like you think that everything can be justified if only it ends up in removing communists. Thats twisted.

[Phreakmeister]

What do you mean more complicated?
Now let's get the facts straight:
1) Salvador Allende was democratically elected
2) He was extremely popular
3) He was very good to the people
4) He posed no threat to other countries
5) He was removed by the CIA
6) He was replaced by Augusto Pinochet
7) Augusto Pinochet was directly responsible for the dissapearance of tens of thousands of people, maybe even hundreds of thousands. He was one of the worst dictators after WW2.

Not really something to be proud of, isn't it?

About Jacobo Arbenz Guzman:
So just because someone is communist, it's justifies his removal, even though he poses no threat to other countries, and even though he was doing great things for the people? Despite all his accomplishments, and despite his democratic election and his popularity amongst the people, it is justified to remove him, because he's a communist? Doesn't that make it even worse than the stalinist-communists?

About Vietnam:
In Vietnam, the people wanted a communist government. Sure, they received help from communist countries, especially China. But that doesn't mean that the desire for communism wasn't widespread throughout the population.

[This message has been edited by Phreakmeister (edited January 11, 2002).]

Originally posted by Sjax:
Paulgro: I have never banged on your door to have you come help us. I know that some countris do, and those countries arent better than the US. In the Serbia war noone called for you.

FOP: Why are you writing that Guzman was a communist. Do you think that him being a communist justifies the US removing him? He was elected democratically.
It seems like you think that everything can be justified if only it ends up in removing communists. Thats twisted.

Umm... because it is true? I never said it was perfectly alright.

And if you want to talk about twisted, it seems you see nothing wrong with ethnic Albanians being murdered by the thousands. Yet you apparently do think it is wrong for another country to prevent it. IMO that is a bit twisted.

[This message has been edited by Fop (edited January 11, 2002).]

[Phreakmeister]

"Either you're with us, or you're with the terrorists"

So supporting the American people, but not supporting the American Government, makes me a terrorist?????
Does that make any sense at all???

[Phreakmeister]

I told you there's a resolution. Well, here it is: http://srch1.un.org/plweb-cgi/fastweb?state_id=1010784883&view=unsearch&numhitsfound=475&query=death%20penalty&&docid=430&docdb=pr1997&dbname=web&sorting=BYRELEVANCE&operator=and&T emplateName=predoc.tmpl&setCookie=1
I know, it's a big URL, but this is the shortest I could get it.

Pinochet was a Chilean army general who made himself dictator after staging a coup. Did the CIA help encourage an uprising? Yes. Did they choose for Pinochet to be in power? No. It was enough for them that Allende is overthrown. They didn't care who comes to power next as long as he isn't a communist.

By the way, your link isn't working.

[Sjax]

FOP: Of course I dont think it is OK to kill thousands of ethnic Albanians. What kind of coldhearted !%!%!%!%!%!%!% do you think I am.
But I dont think that it is right to kill thosands of innocent civilian serbs either. As I said before two wrongs doesnt make a right. The NATO attack on Serbia didnt stop the killings off the albanians, it rather speeded it up because Milosovich wouldnt give in. The killings was stopped by Russia through diplomacy. NATOs fighting fire with fire tactic got us nowhere.

Besides bombing the chinese embassy in Belgrade NATO bombed amongst others: A prison, a cigarette factory, a car factory and some media centers. The result: Thousands of civilian victims. Not by accident, but because they hoped to tire Milosovich out this way. They didnt succeed.

BTW you still hasnt answered if you think that it justidfies an attack or assasin if the purpose is to remove a communist.

[Idnew]

PMYou must have used a search as your link isn't any good.

Also to shorten a link do this....[*url=paste the link here]Name the link here[*/url]I put stars in so it would show but don't use the stars.

It would look like this Whatever (http://srch1.un.org)

[This message has been edited by Idnew (edited January 11, 2002).]

[Idnew]

BTW this forum is for Dumb Laws and while it appears we have some that think our Government has some dumb laws(believe me us Americans think some of our laws are dumb also), this is more or less a debate over our political and other countries political system. Anyway it looks more like a political debate to me so I am moving this to politics. So it's not closed I just moved it.

[Phreakmeister]

Yes, I did indeed use a search. Anyway, let's hope the link does work this time.

Here is the Resolution (http://srch1.un.org/plweb-cgi/fastweb?state_id=1010784883&view=unsearch&numhitsfound=475&query=death%20penalty&&docid=430&docdb=pr1997&dbname=web&sorting=BYRELEVANCE&operator= and&T emplateName=predoc.tmpl&setCookie=1)

[This message has been edited by Phreakmeister (edited January 12, 2002).]

[Phreakmeister]

Did the US assist the uprising against Allende? Yes
Was it a popular uprising? No, it was an uprising by the army
Did the US know who was in charge of the uprising? Yes
So did they know who were to succeed Allende? Yes
Did they let it happen? Yes

Was Allende a communist? No. Allende was a social-democrat.

The US assisted in the overthrow of democratic governments throughout Latin-America. Chile is just an example of this. Other examples are Paraguay, Argentina, Peru, Bolivia and Brazil. Just to name a few. And Guatemala, as I mentioned before.

All these democratic government were replaced with the so-called Condor-group, an alliance of dictators throughout Latin-America, who were aided by the US.

[TV_Guy]

We seem to have strayed from topic. If we're getting onto international blunders made by the US then we'll probably be going for a while! Is there a simpler link Phreak?
And did we determine who said the statement. Gotta say if its genuine, it is indeed pretty extreme. What would the define as being against the American way of life?

[Phreakmeister]

This I think is a simpler link to the resolution (http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/a_opt2.htm)

I have to make one correction here. I was wrong about the year of the resolution. It wasn't 1997 or 1998, it was 1989. My apologies for that.

[This message has been edited by Phreakmeister (edited January 12, 2002).]

[Idnew]

I don't understand the relevance to that link PM something put out by France or Switzerland I think. http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/confused.gif

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[TV_Guy]

That link doesn't seem to have anything to do with the topic.

[Phreakmeister]

It is a link, as you can see by *.ch, which belongs to a site registered in Switzerland. It is a link to a resolution against the death penalty. The resolution was adopted bu the UN High Commission for Human Rights. The link is about this resolution, and it links to the UNHCHR.

[Enforcer]

****! I'm a terrorist
Diz is 1 freaky subject you guys got here.

Quote http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/frown.gifdon't know how 2 do the "real" quote thing)

There have been cases in the US of people being kicked off of college for wearing a T-shirt saying "Anti-Bush, Anti-Bin Laden". This penalty was even confirmed by the Supreme Court. Now you try to tell me that it's easy to prove my innocence.

This is stupid ( I'm a dutchman, 2 by the way)
There R lots of things about the typical american way of life that I find 2 be extremely DUMB, same for law The whole jury thing and all, well anyway I'm a terrorist!!!!!!

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Would you please step away from the vehicle?

Originally posted by Idnew:
Welcome Bob


You know I really don't care how biased we are. If you came here to critize the government(which we all do) then why come? You know if America is so bad then stay in your own country is my opinion. If I have problems with another country, I don't think I would go there. I mean why the h*ll does everybody want to move here or sneak in here if it's so bad anyway?

Why did Sept 11th happen? Jealousy?
http://www.boomspeed.com/idnew/Usa.gif
Hi IDNEW, it wasn't jealousy that made it happen, it was envy.

Originally posted by Phreakmeister:
Our governments never asked the US troops here, the US invited itself here. And do you really think that the US is admired throughout the world? Well, think again.

What caused the hatred?
1) The hypocritical US foreign policy
2) The imperialism
3) The support for terrorist organizations (remember: it was the US who put the Taliban into power)


So you think that you can un-elect the electees. Well, that's what we've seen during the elections. You know, all the recounts and stuff. The result was that the candidate with the most votes lost, because of a decision of some judges. So it wasn't the American people who elected the president, it was a group of judges. Doesn't seem really democratic to me.


Well maybe if your country was capable of operating without our presence, we might leave. I wish all countries would hate us then maybe we would stop sending millions of dollars of food to a country where their chief transportation is a humped back camel.

[Phreakmeister]

Perry:
It wasn't jealousy, nor envy. It was hatred. Hatred of American foreign policy.

Listen, I am not against the American troops staying here after WW2. If they had stayed to watch how things developed, and if they saw how it went, they might also have taken the right conclusion, and leave. WW2 ended in 1945. We're in 2002 now, the Cold War has ended as well. The U.S. troops have been here for the past 57 years.

Listen, we were able to kick the French, English, Spanish and German army out of the country. Don't you think we'd be able to defend ourselves then?
It's not the people who asked the American army to stay here. It was the politicians. Their greed and lack of sense of democracy were more important than the will of the people.

Don't make any illusions: The U.S., and especially George W. Bush is the laughing stock of the world, especially to Europeans. Genova was not an incident. It was a sense of renewed democracy, of people saying "enough is enough".

[TV_Guy]

Especially after he choked on a pretzel...

A big LOL. http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/biggrin.gif