Lifespan of the war on terrorism

How long do you think the US government will pursue this "war on terrorism" before it fades away?

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Co-Owner
Bueno Technologies

[MacReady]

as long Bush is still president of course, after 2004 hopefully or 2008, all this will go away.

[This message has been edited by MacReady (edited March 10, 2002).]

[Idnew]

I think it will go on for a good long while and depending on who the next pres is, it might continue to go on.

[Serendipity]

It probably depends to some extent on the terrorists, too. If they don't try anything in the US for a long time then the public sympathy for the cause may well wane. After all, there have been terrorists around for a long time (some of them sponsored by the US), it's only as a result of 9/11 that it's such a popular cause now.

[The Horseman]

I reckon that it will go on for as long as Bin Laden is at large. The War is usually associated with Bin Laden and his movement - so they'll probably back there bags the second they find him, or destroy his movement at least

[cleoeo]

Congress is back to partisan bickering. The Anthrax mailer is apparently an American. We're running out of Al Queda strongholds to bomb. Walmart has American flags and Statue Of Liberty lawn posters on clearance for a buck. The "War On Terrorism" is fading fast.

[Phreakmeister]

Well, let's see the next targets.
First there's Iraq. It's not a matter of IF they're gonna be attacked, it's a matter of WHEN they're gonna be attacked.
The Philippines are already under attack. Well, officially it's a military training. Yeah right. The US army sends its finest officers on training in an area where accidentally an Al Qaeda-linked terrorist organization is active. Now why doesn't that sound realistic to me?
Somalia probably as well. It's just a matter of gathering enough support.
Chechnya probably. (Won't somebody please show mr. Bush what the Russian army is doing to the Chechens?)
Libya definitely. It's not top priority right now, but it'll come, it'll come.
Northern Pakistan definitely, coz that is where Al Qaeda and Taleban-fighters are running to.
Yemen and Oman probably.
Syria and Algeria possibly.

Looks like this may take some time.......

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Do you believe in death after life?

[aclu14]

A lot of lost time, if you ask me

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[The Horseman]

You reckon that terrorism is the new communism?

[Phreakmeister]

It depends on how you look at communism.

I would say no. Communism is a good theory. The practice turned out to be wrong, but only the people can be blamed for that, not the theory. Terrorism isn't a good thing.

Terrorism is about killing innocent people, communism is about correcting centuries of injustice.

But if you look at the approach of the USA towards the situation, then terrorism indeed is the new communism. McCarthyism is lurking again.

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Do you believe in death after life?

Communism will only work in a homogeneous society in my opinion. Since an exactly homogeneous society does not exist, I doubt it can ever be put to use in a perfected way.

Communism is based on the theory that people will work the same amount and receive the same benefits for their efforts. Mistakes of the past that are hard to overcome:

- Leaders often get more benefits than the ordinary citizen and therefore create jealousy

- Different jobs have more effort that must be put forth in order to accomplish them. For example, a secretary's job is much less physically straining than a farmer

- People will not work the same amount. Laziness will persist in any society unless an effective propaganda program is created to combat this. Even if one is developed, persons may become sick and miss work, causing other workers to become jealous of working more for the same benefits. This causes an overall decline in productivity...

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Co-Owner
Bueno Technologies

[Serendipity]

Originally posted by The Horseman:
You reckon that terrorism is the new communism?

I presume you mean that it's the current thing for the Free World (i.e. the US) to fear/despise/get all hot under the collar about? It's funny, plenty of other parts of the world have got used to terrorists - not complacent, just accustomed - but now that the US is a target it's suddenly a big deal, and there's a "war" against it. As in the war on drugs, it's people's minds that have to change before any other change takes place.

In the meantime, Al-Qeada very probably won't bother the US for another couple of years. The whole point of 9/11 is that nobody was expecting it.

[The Horseman]

Yes, actually I did mean the latest thing for the US to get scared about.

Meanwhile, on the subject of communism, what's always astonished me is Marx and Engel's inability to understand human nature. I mean, they assumed that once the worker got control of the system, and reformed it, a perfect society would be inevitable. No-one seems to have taken 'power corrupts' into account.

[Phreakmeister]

I know equal wages will disrupt society, simply because people won't be willing to earn the same. But executives making 476 times as much money (!!!!!!!!!!) as the average that employees make, that's a bit over the top, don't you think?
Perfect equality in income won't be possible, but a bit more equal than now, is that too much to ask?

About the homogeneous society:
I personally believe in the quote: "People are equal but not the same"

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Do you believe in death after life?

[The Horseman]

Yea, wages are unequal. But that's just a result of living in a capitalist society. Wage earnings will always be unequal in the Western world. The people at the top have the right, under most company regulations, to set the wages paid, from the minimum wage (assuming that the country has it), to the wage that they are paid. You have to change the economic system to change that practise. And since Liberal-democratic capitalism is the system of the moment (most countries have adopted it, if only in name), change is fundementally unlikely.

[Phreakmeister]

That is exactly what I'm fighting for. That change.
What really made me p1ssed off, was the London Underground a couple of years ago. Thousands of people had to be fired, because of a so-called decrease in income of the company. Nothing wrong with that. A pity it had to happen, but if it's necessary for the survival of the company, I can live with mass-cuts (although I think this should also apply for those who are responsible for the lack of income of the company: the board). But anyhow, at the same time the board gave itself a raise of ON AVERAGE 14%. Same happens with Philips now. Thousands of people get fired in order to pay the greed of the executives. Something has to be done about that.


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Do you believe in death after life?

[This message has been edited by Phreakmeister (edited March 27, 2002).]

[cleoeo]

The answer involves good, affordable education for all members of society and the ability to move freely to get the best wages. The right to organize labor is also critical, as is the one person/one vote political system. As a member of the working class my most valuable assets are my labor, my skills, and my vote.
A cradle-to-grave communist system of central planning lacks these basic elements.

[The Horseman]

Well, as far as I can see, equal wages are a long way off for private sector workers at least. With the public sector after all, all of that can be changed with a rise in taxes to the level that is needed. But with private sector - I can't see any government introducing laws to influence wage levels

Phreak - what sort of system do you have in mind?

[weldordave]

Hey Phreak, just in case you're interested. The Philippine thing has been going on for awhile. I was there under Uncle Ronnie but then the "evil menace" was the NPA (New Peoples Army). Our instructors at jungle school were all gorillas during the Japanese occupation of WW2 and very disheartened at the state of their country. Don't worry, the Philippines is a great country and the people are just as great. Most instigaters were not Flips but Vietnamese or Mid-East. The future will see this nation emerge strong. Note: it wasn't a US thing. Aussies were there too!

[Phreakmeister]

Originally posted by The Horseman:
Phreak - what sort of system do you have in mind?

I personally am fond of a system which is sometimes referred to as 'steak-socialism' or capitalist socialism. It's not the kind of socialism as it is carried out in China though. It's more like the socialism as carried out by Poland, Czechoslovakia and Hungary. Which doesn't mean I applaud to their social or political policies, I'm just referring to the economic policy. Another example is Lenin's New Economic Policy (NEP) (which, oh irony, translates to Dutch as 'fake'). The state stays out of the economic sectors where it is not required (such as banking) and is involved in sectors necessary to society. Sectors such as energy, telecommunications, public transportations, etc. etc. etc.
So somewhat like socialist liberalism or liberal socialism. Or something like that.



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Do you believe in death after life?

[The Horseman]

I have to admit, your system sounds pretty good on the whole. Certainly better than what we have over here in the UK at the moment (where everything seems to be falling apart).

Have you ever read anything about the British government of 1945-51 (headed by a guy called Clement Atlee)?. That's the nearest thing to liberal socialism being in operation that I can think of

[Phreakmeister]

I think I can remember Attlee. I think I was supposed to have learned about him for Socio-Economic History last period. Well, wasn't asked at the exams, so I don't mind http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif

Nearest thing we had to liberal socialism was under Drees, immediately after the war. Thanks to him we got support from the Marshall-plan. He lived really sober, in a normal house, not even in Suburbia, but in Urbia. When Mr. Marshall visited him in his limo, he had to walk the last bit to his house, because the limo couldn't enter the street. They gave him tea & biscuits, which he had every afternoon. He was Mr. Regular to the bone. Mr. Marshall thought: "If the prime-minister lives like this, what the hell is the rest of the country like??????"
And so we got support after all. This man, Mr. Drees, turned the Netherlands into a welfare state. He came up with the entire social system.

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Do you believe in death after life?

[The Horseman]

Sounds like a decent kind of guy.

[Serendipity]

I believe Atlee's socialism came about as a result of the war. A lot of people had sacrificed their lives, health, homes, etc., during the war, so some payback was due. It's interesting that Churchill - still regarded as a national hero for his leadership during the war - was voted out of office as soon as the war was over.

[Phreakmeister]

BTW, here's what Nostradamus had to say about September 11, before we get even more off topic

Century 1, Quatrain 87
Earth-shaking fire from the center of the Earth.
Will cause the towers around the New City to shake:
Two great rocks for a long time will make war,
And then Arethusa will color a new river red.

Century 2, Quatrain 89
One day the two great leaders will become friends,
Their great power will be seen to increase:
The new land will be at the height of its power,
To the bloody one the number reported.

Century 4, Quatrain 16
The free city of Liberty made servile,
Made an asylum for corrupt ones and dreamers:
The King changed, to them not so vehement:
From one hundred will become more than a thousand.

Century 5 Quatrain 65
Suddenly arrived, the terror will be great,
The principal players in the affair are hidden away:
And the lady in the hot coals will no longer be in sight,
Thus little by little will the great ones will be angered.

Century 6, Quatrain 97
At five and forty degrees, the sky will burn,
Fire approaches the great new city,
Immediately a huge, scattered flame leaps up,
When they want to have verification from the Normans.

Century 8, Quatrain 17
Those at ease will suddenly be cast down
The world put into trouble by three brothers,
The enemies will seize the marine city,
Famine, fire, blood, plague, all evils doubled.

Century 8, Quatrain 59
Two times put high, two times put low,
The East also the West will weaken:
Its adversary after several battles,
Driven out by sea will fail at the time of need.

Century 9, Quatrain 81
The sly King will understand his ambushes,
From three fronts the enemies assail,
A strange number, tears from the hooded men,
The brilliance of the translator will come to fail.

Century 10, Quatrain 49
Garden of the world near the new city,
In the path of the hollow mountains:
It will be seized and plunged into the Vat,
Drinking by force the waters poisoned by sulfur.

Century 10, Quatrain 74
The year the great seventh number is accomplished,
Appearing at the time of the games of slaughter:
Not far from the age of the great millennium,
When the dead will come out of their graves.

Century 10, Quatrain 97
Triremes full of captives of all ages,
Times good to bad, the sweet for the bitter:
Prey to the Barbarians hasty they will be too soon,
Greedy to see the "plume" [feather or of smoke?] wail in the wind

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Do you believe in death after life?

[The Horseman]

Phreak, to be honest, I can't really see what - 'And the lady in the hot coals will no longer be in sight' has to do with September 11. Correct me please if I'm just being stupid, but it doesn't seem to make any sense in the context of what happened.

[Phreakmeister]

The Twin Towers can be seen as a lady, metaphorically speaking. She is in hot coals: the rubble (which is still burning).
And she is out of sight. You can't see the Twin Towers anymore.


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Do you believe in death after life?

[Zany-J]

I think Nostradamus is conveniently vague - just like horrorscopes you can add any meaning to it.

As for the War on Terrorism I think it will be around as long as the politicians can keep it going. Its an ideal tool for them to pass totally strict laws and increase their powers.

I will have to agree with zany on this... I think Nostradamous was intentionally vague so his statements could apply to multiple events. Also, he wrote so many predictions, some of them are bound to come true...

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Co-Owner
Bueno Technologies

[The Horseman]

Phreak, anything can be seen as anything metaphorically speaking. I, for example, could be seen as a pink rhino with yellow spots if we're talking about metaphores. I have to agree with the other guys - he was gobsmackingly vague so that his words could be interpreted as anything that ended up happening

[Phreakmeister]

A pink rhino with yellow spots....... God I gotta see that for myself

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Do you believe in death after life?

[aclu14]

Maybe he's referring to the witch that got pushed in the stove in Hansel and Gretel.

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[The Horseman]

Actually, I've never read 'Hansel and Gretel'. And they gave me this cream for the spots.

This bogus war will continue until JUNIOR is kicked-out of office in 2005.

[Phreakmeister]

Nixon stepped down just after leaving Nam. Let's hope Bush will step down before ending TWAT.

[nacho cheese]

This bogus war will continue until JUNIOR is kicked-out of office in 2005.

Well I'm not so sure 'cause it seems that every war he wages the more popular he gets. And he have plenty time to start a few.

[weldordave]

Originally posted by Phreakmeister
Nixon stepped down just after leaving Nam. Let's hope Bush will step down before ending TWAT.
What the he11 are you talking about? We were still in Vietnam when Dick left. Get your God-Damn AMERICAN history strait,BOY.

[Phreakmeister]

Dave, if you wanna be taken seriously, STOP CALLING EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH YOU "BOY"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!
You are not the only one in here, you know. Just because people don't babble after you to the very letter, doesn't mean you have to become so arrogant as to call everyone "boy". If you truly had argumentative skills, you wouldn't need that "boy".

When did the last American troops leave Vietnam? March 29th, 1973. When did Richard Nixon resign? August 8th, 1974. So who needs to get his facts about American history strait?

[aclu14]

Dubya's approval rate is hovering at about 53%, down from 89% about this time last year. 42% think he's handling the economy well, 43% don't think so, and the most the manipulative media can come up with for war support is about 45%, down from 70% a few months ago.

[Phreakmeister]

A Gallup poll, released on August 23rd 2002, revealed that Bush jr. had an approval rate of 65%, while in November 2001 it still was 87%. Bush's disapproval rate, according to Gallup polls, is increasing rapidly, from 11% in November 2001 to 28% in September 2002.

[aclu14]

A poll I just voted in at www.interventionmag.com, "Should there be another Iraq war," 90.43% of 1,985 polled answered NO.

[Phreakmeister]

60 to 70% of Britain, 75% of France and 84% of Germany are opposed to unilateral strike against Iraq without UN mandate. A recent CNN/Time poll showed, that 81% of US public opinion is against war on Iraq without UN mandate.

[kontulib]

Originally posted by aclu14
A poll I just voted in at www.interventionmag.com, "Should there be another Iraq war," 90.43% of 1,985 polled answered NO. '

That link doesn´t work anymore. Why? :confused:
Oh yes. Too hot link. CIA have closed it...:cool