Why people hate the USA...

I found this web page while I was surfing around, thought it might be of interest to some people...

Since 2001-9-11, US citizens have been asking ``Why do they hate us so much?'' For most Americans, this is a rhetorical question. They don't really want to know why. They just want to voice their belief that they are the best country in the world and they have never done anything wrong. On the contrary, so they say they believe, they have been the most genereous and helpful country in the world. Unfortunately, the facts are the opposite. What the USA is good at is media manipulation. Their propaganda techniques would have made Goebbels faint with delight.

This web page is for those US citizens who want a few starting clues as to why so many people hate the USA. If you don't want to know, just click the ``back'' button.

Having good advertising/propaganda technique is not in itself a bad thing, but it does mean that Americans can't see the world clearly from within their own environment. The USA is in many ways an excellent country. The problem is just that this is so often at cost to the rest of the world, both in wealth and lives. State-of-the-art media manipulation ensures that most US citizens don't know what is being done in their name.

Starting on 2001-12-21, I'll start writing out the reasons why most people in the world hate the USA. (I wrote down 42 reasons in the first 2 hours of writing.) These reasons will not be in order of strength of hate. Please ignore the order. I'm just using a numbering so that I can count the reasons easily.

About 3000 innocent civilians were killed on 2001-9-11. This is a tiny token compared the suffering inflicted on the world by the USA every day. (Perhaps I should also mention that the murder rate in the USA is about 80 per million per annum, which is about 20,000 per annum for the whole country. So the deaths on 2001-9-11 were less than a typical 2 months of murders in the USA. The murder rate in Australia is only about 20 per million per annum because we have strict gun control laws.)

The United States sees all world issues with one eye closed. US citizens see only what is good about themselves and their client states and what is bad in others. But they should open the other eye too - and see the evil in themselves and the good in others.

In the USA, it is said that ``the terrorists hate the democracy and freedom of the USA and the West''. This is complete garbage. Anyone with more than 5 neurons working in their brain knows that this is garbage. People worldwide admire the good things of the USA and hate the bad things. Americans must do some homework and find out what crimes, barbarism and atrocities are committed in their name.

The USA has built up a deep reservoir of hate against it. The reservoir of hate has become much deeper since 2001-9-11. Sometimes the dam wall breaks a little. But if the USA does not open its eyes soon, the dam wall will burst wide open and unleash the entire reservoir. Suicide hijackings are just the first unavoidable sign of the anti-USA hate for US citizens. More signs are sure to emerge as time goes by.

The mass murder of over 1 million innocent Vietnamese civilians during the Vietnam war as an act of mass state terrorism. The USA should have been forced to pay hundreds of billions of dollars of reparations for these war crimes. But instead, the USA imposed horrendous trade sanctions on Vietnam which led to mass starvation for many years. At the same time, the USA forced the Vietnamese to put a humiliating amount of effort into finding decades-old corpses of American war criminals. Tens or hundreds of thousands of innocent civilian Vietnamese died without their bodies being recovered. But US citizens are capable of feeling no sympathy for any people other than their own.

The removal of the freely elected democratic government of Chile by the CIA, including the bombing of the presidential palace (on another September 11), followed by the murder of thousands of innocent civilians.

Decades of embargo of the popular government of Cuba, while the USA gives most favoured nation status to China, which is one of the most undemocratic governments in the world.

For a few decades now, the USA has been cooperating with China in the international ostracism of Taiwan. Although Taiwan is a democratic country and China is a totalitarian dictatorship, the USA takes the side of China. This is because the USA wants access to China's markets for its big capitalists. This shows that the USA is against democracy. The USA actually prefers to have totalitarian dictatorships as allies, as has been shown for many decades around the world. The USA is not pro-democracy. The USA is just pro-big-capitalist. How can anyone believe that the USA prefers democracy when they see them isolate Taiwan so as to be friendly towards China.

After the second world war, the USA forced the United Kingdom to empty its vaults of gold to give to the USA. As a result, the British had punishing rationing and serious poverty for many years after 1945. There had been an agreement between Churchill and the USA that the ``lend-lease'' scheme for ships and supplies for the UK was a way of getting the USA to participate in the war although most of the population of the USA were essentially pro-German. The USA entered the 2nd world war when it was in their interests to do so. And after the war, they went back on their deal to convert lend-lease to a gift, because they wanted to force the UK to dismantle its empire. This is still deeply resented by older people in the UK. The British Empire was dismantled, many dozens of countries fell into utter chaos, and the USA became the dominant country in the world.
The USA continues to protect, encourage and finance Israel in its crimes against humanity in Palestine, most of which they illegally occupy. The USA blocks every humane gesture by the United Nations. The USA encourages and financially supports the slaughter of thousands of innocent people in the Palestine every year by the Israelis seeking Lebensraum. The occupied West Bank of Jordan resembles the Warsaw Ghetto of world war II. But what was evil for the German Nazis to do is encouraged every day by the USA.

Enforcement of completely inappropriate and humiliating conditions on Thailand through the IMF, which is controlled by the USA. In the ``Asian crisis'' of about 1997, the currency of Thailand collapsed, due to the sudden withdrawal of huge amounts of capital, mostly by the USA. As a result, there was massive unemployment, thousands of people committed suicide, and the misery continues to this day. The IMF forced Thailand to carry out even more inappropriate measures after the crisis, whereas Malaysia refused the IMF commands. Malaysia's economy improved quickly but Thailand's did not. The economies of Vietnam and China hardly noticed the ``Asian meltdown'', because they did not follow the IMF commands.

The USA backed Pol Pot with arms, training, finance and full diplomatic support for over a decade. This was one of the worst regimes in history, which killed over 1/3 of the population of the country. But the USA supported Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge as they continued to commit atrocities and destroy the country of Cambodia with land mines. The rise of Pol Pot started when the USA was illegally bombing huge areas of Cambodia, intentionally killing vast numbers of innocent civilians. The USA has neve apologized for these crimes.
The USA colonized and annexed Hawaii. The USA should decolonise this independent nation.

The USA funds a terrorist training school called the "School of the Americas".
The USA gave huge amounts of funding to terrorists in Nicaragua who killed hundreds of thousands of Nicaraguans in the 1980s with guns and mines on farmland. Many hundreds of innocent civilians lost their legs too or were maimed in other ways. When there was finally an election along US-approved lines, the USA said the vote was not fair and would not be recognized - until it emerged that their side won, and then they immediately announced that the election was completely fair.

The USA illegally mined Managua harbour. When the USA was taken to the international court for this and the USA lost the case, the USA immediately withdrew its recognition of the court, even though it had agreed by treaty to give at least 6 months notice of withdrawal of recognition. The USA clearly believes that only other countries need to abide by international agreements. The USA is exempt from all international law.

The USA is generally hated for its citizens' Disneyland attitude to tourism. When US citizens travel abroad, they mostly think that everything is a kind of theme park for them to photograph and poke fun at and desecrate. US citizens talk loudly and coarsely when overseas. They abuse and insult the women. They think that their money gives them the right to do anything they want. The US ignorance of foreign cultures and languages is legendary. Americans get irate when people of other countries can' speak fluent English.
US citizens have absolutely no comprehension of how much other countries suffer. A typical attitude is shown by some US women who see news stories of third world countries where people are starving and say things like: ``Ooh, I'd die for that slim figure.''
US citizens have a general attitude that they are rich because they are superior. This is totally explicitly stated, especially on ceremonial occasions. The reason the USA is rich is for many reasons, including very successful exploitation of other countries, the fact that they came into world wars I and II very late when other countries were exhausted, the geographical isolation of the USA, the fertile land which they took from the indigenous people (whom they largely exterminated), and their homogeneous language and culture.

Throughout the 1990s, the USA has been imposing "globalisation" on the whole world. This is a propaganda term which means americanisation of culture, economics and politics. All countries are forced to cut bak on all public services and social welfare as the US has done, and every country must accept anything that the US wants to export, no matter how much this harms the economies of non-US countries. This often means that even valid health objections are rejected by the USA. When other countries succeed in exporting to the USA, e.g. farm goods at 1/3 the cost of production, the USA puts on heavy tariffs and gives substantial support to US farmers. Current estimates are that 50% of US farm income comes from the government. The USA does not permit any other country to do this. When other countries object, the USA wrangles in courts for years until so much damage is done that the issue is no longer relevant. The so-called "globalisation" ideology is making poor countries poorer and the USA richer.
The USA stole vast areas of land from the Spanish empire to create California, Texas etc.

The USA approved the Suharto government's killing of about 500,000 Chinese Indonesians who were suspected of being communist sympathisers.

The US government gave the go-ahead to the Indonesian government to invade East Timor in 1975. This resulted in the several hundred thousand deaths of innocent civilians, with US approval.

Invasion of Haiti.

Invasion of Panama to get just one guy, Noriega, who happened to be a CIA employee who was conducting most of the cocaine trade from South America into the USA.
Invasion of Grenada.

Unsuccessful invasion of Cuba. Large numbers of people pointlessly killed for ideological reasons, with no apology.

In many countries, especially in Asia, the USA has forced governments to accept imports of US tobacco as a condition of normalising trade. And in some countries, the USA insisted that since they had to catch up for lost sales of cigarettes in the past, they should be allowed to conduct big advertising campaigns. They insisted on this despite the fact that many of these countries had already banned cigarette advertising for health reasons. Therefore the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Asians is due to these disgusting "fair trade" conditions by the USA.

Support of muslim fanatics in Afghanistan to kill Russians and other Soviet citizens. The Russian presence improved the quality and equality of life in Afghanistan. As a result of US actions in Afghanistan, huge numbers of Russian conscripts were killed, the country's political system collapsed, and the political vacuum was filled by US client groups who violated human rights on a vast scale with US support, knowledge and acquiescence.

Support for Iraq against Iran in the Iraq-Iran war of the 1980s, despite the very well-known fact that Iraq attacked Iran pre-emptively without warning from the air in the expectation of destroying all of Iran's planes on the ground and occupying all of Iran. The Iraqis killed as many as 1 million Iranians. The Iraqis used chemical and biological weapons with US knowledge and acquiescence because of the US desire to punish Iran. The USA never forgives a country which has beaten or humiliated the USA. In punishment for the Iranians locking up 50 US citizens for 1 year, the USA caused the death of millions of Iranians. The USA still has punishing sanctions against Iran for no good reason.

The USA is currently (late 2001) preventing Europe from starting its own GPS system. They say it is against US interests. Indeed it is. If the US goes to war with any country, it can use "Selective Availability" to remove GPS capability from any region of the earth - but the USA military ahve the decryption codes to use the GPS even if it is rendered completely useless to other nations. This makes it more difficult for non-US countries to aim cruise missiles, but it also cripples air travel and sea travel within the region. This power over the whole world is awesome, and the US cannot be trusted with this power. And now they are trying to stop Europe from taking away the US monopoly. The USA is always against any other country having any sort of monopoly, but fiercely defends its own monopolies.

The USA requires other countries to permit US companies to bid for defence contracts, and they are believed to use echelon intercepts to find out the bids of their opposition. But foreign countries are not allowed to bid on US contracts mostly, because the US only trusts US citizens to work on US defence projects.

When other countries have slight irregularities in voting procedures, the USA takes this as a pretext to impose heavy trade sanctions. But often these irregularities are caused mostly by ignorance or misunderstandings. But in the 2000 election in the USA, thousands of African Americans were turned back from the polls in Florida because the officials knew that they would vote for the Democrats. As a result the candidate with the second-most votes was selected to be president. This kind of outright racism and election fixing would be regarded as unacceptable in third world countries. A new election wouold be required, but in the USA, the ``national interest'' required that the irregularities be ignored.

Whenever an international standard develops for anything, the USA insists on trying to undermine it. Just one example is the adoption of GSM, which was invented in Europe. The US ideology demanded that there should be multiple competing digital mobile phone technologies because pointless competition is part of the USA's culture. As a result, the USA ended up with an appalling mess with mobile telephony, whereas the rest of the world got the very successful GSM.

Along a similar line, the US insists on keeping medieval Roman measuring units, also called British Imperial units (acres, inches, feet, yards, furlongs, miles, pounds, ounces, hundredweights, imperial tons, gallons, fluid ounces etc.), because it is in the short-term interests of the US to do so. Consequently, every other country has to produce everything in dual units for the USA. The USA claims to be very modern, but is in actual fact the most backward bountry in the world in measuring units. Everybody else in the world can cope with metric units. So why can't the USA cope?

The USA has a world-wide spying system called "echelon", operated in conjunction with the English-speaking AUSCANNZUKUS alliance. This is used to give the US economic supremacy and political advantage by listening in to all phone calls in the world. The USA has recently passed laws to give it authority over all computer traffic (Internet) which passes through US territory. They have given themselves extra-territorial jurisdiction over supposed computer crimes committed with no connection at all with the USA. Extra-territorial jurisdiction is very much hated by other countries. The USA never accepts extra-territorial jurisdiction by other countries, as shown by the case where France required Yahoo to not sell Nazi memorabilia to French citizens. A US court overturned this.

For many decades, the US has operated an international cartel of capitalist countries to deny strong encryption and powerful computers to any country which the US has any sort of disagreement with. This has helped to impoverish many other countries.

When the USA organised an international boycott of selling wheat to the USSR in 1980, the USA secretly agreed with the boycotted countries that the USA would get all of their contracts after the boycott was lifted. Thus countries like Australia which went along with the boycott lost all their markets to the USA after the boycott was lifted. This was very much hated in Australia.

The USA tries to export its gun culture/obsession to other countries. US lobby groups send missionaries to other countries, such as Australia, to strengthen opposition to gun laws. Since the USA has about 4 times the per capita murder rate of Australia, this is not a very good idea for Australia. But the USA thinks that their constitution is the best in the world, and anyone who is different must be stupid. They also like to sell more guns. So they interfere with the sovereignty of other nations by stirring up and supporting anti-gun-law lobbyists in other countries.

The US imposes its laws against music and video copying throughout the world, excerising extra-territorial `jurisdiction'. Because of the use by pathetically weak encryption by the US music and film industry, the USA has a law called the DMCA, which forbids decryption of music and videos. But people in Europe and Russia have decrypted these formats. Therefore these people are prosecuted in the USA for acts which are legal in other countries. One prominent example is the CSS encryption, which enables US companies to charge more in Europe than in the USA, Asia or Europe, for instance. It also prevents linux users from playing video disks.

This kind of market distortion is the opposite to globalisation and is anti-competitive. This shows that the USA lies when they say they are in favour of globalisation and free competition. They are only in favour of globalisation and free competition in market sectors where the USA is strong. In the markets where the USA is weak, they enforce anti-competitive and anti-trade protectionist measures, and laws to distort markets in their favour.

The USA unilaterally withdrew from the climate treaty, because it was not in the US short-term interest to cooperate with other countries. This is despite the fact that the USA has about the same standard of living as western Europe with about twice the per capita energy consumption. The USA is just an extremely inefficient consumer of fuel, which forces to the rest of the world to use less. The USA wants other countries to make economic sacrifices to help the USA, but not vice versa.

The USA is unilaterally withdrawing from the ABM treaty out of perceived self-interest. I think that the Russians have not objected to this because they know that the USA is just wasting its money. But the USA wants to have complete impunity to bomb any country in the world back into the stone age, like Afghanistan, without any risk at all of retaliation.

The USA insists that patent law should be sacred world-wide when the USA wants to maximize its profits from AIDS treatment drugs. As a result, millions of people are dying needlessly world-wide in poor countries. But when the USA wanted to get some cheap anti-anthrax drugs because about 3 people in the USA had died, then on the grounds of national emergency, the USA said that they should be able to override the patents just to get a price reduction for a drug which they could well afford. This has outraged people worldwide who see that the value of a USA citizen is a million times greater than that of citizens of other countries, in the USA's view.
Participation in the mass murder of hundreds of thousands of civilians in terrorist attacks on Germany in the Second World War.

Use of nuclear weapons against hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians in Japan in the second world war. This was not how the war ended actually. The Japanese had been trying very hard to surrender, but the US refused to accept their surrender because they wanted to try out the nuclear weapons which were ready too late for the European theatre for which they were intended. Thus the USA prolonged the war with Japan so as to be able to test the effects of nuclear weapons on hundreds of thousands of civilians. This is definitely a war crime.
The USA fire-bombed Tokyo, killing hundreds of thousands of civilians, simply with the intention of terrorising the population. This is a serious war crime.

President Clinton ordered the bombing of a Sudanese pharmaceuticals factory, thinking erroneously that it was for producing some sort of armaments. Several hundred people were killed in this. Then the USA put trade restrictions on Sudan so that pharmaceuticals could not be imported. As a result, since that time many tens of thousands of additional people have died of malaria because that factory was producing anti-malaria drugs. This crime in itself was much more serious than the 2001-9-11 suicide hijacking.

While siding with Iraq against Iran, the US shot down an Iranian passenger plane, killing hundreds of people, even though it was clear from all sources of information that it was a civilian plane. Some trigger-happy naval officer shot it down before thinking. This is the problem with giving the muscles of a giant to someone with the mind of a child. The USA just so easily wipes out hundreds, thousands or millions of lives without consequences to itself.

In terms of energy efficiency, the USA has about the same standard of living as Western Europe but with twice the consumption of energy. As a result, the USA has to control world oil prices so as to maintain its standard of living. On top of this, they refuse to restrict their pollution of the atmosphere.
For the last 30 years, the USA has been the principle funder of the Irish terrorists who have been killing both civilians and soldiers trying to keep the peace in Northern Ireland. This shows that the USA only objects to terorists who are muslim and anti-USA. The anti-british northern Irish terrorists are pro-USA. So the USA sends them lots of money and political support to kill the English in Britain and the protestants in northern Ireland. This shows that the USA very definitely will not declare a war on all terrorists.

During the Second World War, the USA was originally planning to send about 215 army divisions to Europe in 1943 to remove the Nazis. But they worked out that this would affect their economy. So they changed their plans and sent only 90 divisions in 1944. As a result, the US economy improved during the World War II, while the economy of Europe contracted by about 25%. during the extra year, several million more people died, including a few million people in concentration camps such as the European Jews. This proves that the USA values its own economy much more than the lives of millions of innocent people in other countries. The US entry into WW2 was in the US interests, not an altruistic act.

When the Jewish terrorists killed British and Palestinian people in 1945-1948, the USA gave full support to the terrorists to create a state out of the land of the Palestinians. The USA supported, financed and harboured these terrorists. Clearly the USA is pro-terrorist. Menachim Begin was one of the terrorists who bombed the King David Hotel in Palestine, and yet the USA gave him full support. In the same way, the USA fully supports the war criminal Ariel Sharon now.

Any one or two of these reasons would be adequate to explain why the world hates the USA. But taken together, it is amazing that the USA has not been attacked before by "terrorists". I personally expect that some time in the next 3-5 years, a "terrorist" will sail into a US harbour and explode a nuclear weapon on board a ship. But even this would not be greater than the crimes committed by the USA against other countries. The "terrorists" will have been emboldened by the 2001-9-11 attack, and they will now be preparing something even bigger to upstage that.
The USA is responsible for millions of deaths every decade world-wide. This has been done without any fear of attack on US territory. Now for the first time, the USA gets an attack, and it goes on a rampage killing thousands of innocent people while trying to track down and kill a handful of "masterminds".

Anyone in the USA who really, really wants to understand why so many people hate the USA should read the above notes and do further research of their own to learn of the huge scale of murder and horrendous exploitation of other countries by the USA. But it is not in the ``interests'' of US citizens to learn about the harm they are doing every day to the rest of the world. Like the Roman Empire before them, the USA will only realise what it has done wrong when the ``barbarians'' are at the gates and their empire crumbles. On 2001-9-11, just a few barbarians got in through the gates. There will certainly be more. And that's why I'm not really keen on the idea of working in the USA right now. (It's very easy indeed to imagine how a suitcase nuke can be brought into NY harbour on a ship and detonated.) If I were a US resident wishing to avoid future destruction, I would be urging my government to stop funding and collaborating in the destruction of the Palestinian people and colonisation of their territory.

Personally, I don't hate the USA. But I am dismayed by the horrors inflicted on the poor countries of the world by the Emporer of the USA. No country can afford to make enemies of the majority of countries in the world. The excessive use of the ``big stick'' to solve all international problems has resulted in a very resentful world. Like a lion-tamer who whacks the lions too often, the USA needs to be careful now. Even elephants sometimes kill their trainer when they have been beaten once too often.

The actions by the USA in the last 3 months of 2001 may be described as ``fighting barbarism with barbarism''. Many people in the world hoped on 2001-9-11 that US citizens would stop and think about what they are doing which attracts so much hate. But the US government told them not to think about the USA's evil-doing. People in the USA who have thought about the causes of 2001-9-11 have been harrrassed and threatened. Therefore there will be no hope of the USA changing its ways. The USA will live by the big stick and die by the big stick. There are many good, thinking US citizens. But they are powerless.


[This message has been edited by hex (edited January 28, 2002).]

[MacReady]

Amen, this is very good post and so true. If there more of this from a site u got from, pls copy/paste url to here and I wanna read more. thank you

I agree with most of those points except one regarding the School of the Americas which is near my home in Columbus, GA. Someone can't deny that many persons that graduated from the school became evil (or maybe already were when they went through the school) after graduating, and slaughtered many people in their respective countries. However, the majority do good with the knowledge they learned. There are many examples of ex-soldiers from the US that become murderers and violent criminals but do we disband all of our armies? However, much of this article is correct for the most part. I especially agree with the statement about American tourists....you can also include something about American "missionaries" who try to force their religion on others in 3rd world countries as many Europeans did hundreds of years ago.

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Co-Owner
Bueno Technologies

[CBranski]

Lord knows that I don't like many of the foreign policy decisions made by my government-it gets rather tiring seeing my tax dollars go to support an oppressive regime in one country while we are supposed to hate the oppressive country next door-just doesn't make sense.

What also doesn't make sense is how the world views the role of this nation:when we step in to police the cations of a brutal dictator, we are accussed of imperialism. If we sit on the sidelines on the other hand, we are told we are uncaring. You can see how this gets confusing.

In the case of Sudan, it needs to be realized that their government finds it delightful to slaughter Christians and amnists in the southern end of their country. The practice of slavery is also winked at. Of course the bombing of the pharmecutecal factory in Khartoum was political, but consider this: if the Sudanese government were given pharmecutecals, would they bother to distribute them?

It is assinine to blame the US for the likes of Hussein, Suharto, bin Laden, et al for the brutality they commit. I don't like the fact that my government supported them, but I have a hard time believing they would be nice people were it not for us. Tyrants throughout the world brutalize their citizens through their own initiative.

On the subject of tourists, I spent much of my youth living in a resort area of South Carolina and found many of them (tourists) to be insuffurable rude !%!%!%!%!%!%!%!%s irregardless of national origin.

In sum, the American people should be considered separate from their government-many of the points brought forth were not known until it was too late. Tyrants will be tyrants whether or not American money is present.

While hex makes some good points sbout some of the scum the US has been in bed with, our nation is not the source of world suffering.

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Tony Soprano for Sherriff!

[MacReady]

Originally posted by CBranski:
In sum, the American people should be considered separate from their government-many of the points brought forth were not known until it was too late. Tyrants will be tyrants whether or not American money is present.

America people need government, and government people in America are working bees like everyone. Higher government are politicals also commonwealth people are the problem not government people. Politicals and commonwealth need to be kick out of our country cuz they are taking advantage of us and embrassing America.


Originally posted by CBranski:
While hex makes some good points sbout some of the scum the US has been in bed with, our nation is not the source of world suffering.

Regular Americans arent likely to be the source today but America Politicals and commonwealth are the ****est capalistism and highest possible source in world's suffering since almost 200 years. America politicals and commonwealth dont care if other country blame normal America people like us as long Anti-America thinking its us. Does America really have freedom? is America really free if we can kick those politicals and commonwealths out? Can we throw those anals out of our country to save it? Remember government people help America people working together, it just sucks when politicals do the decisions.

[Sjax]

You cant say that all american tourists behave badly in foreign countries, but some of them definately do.

A friend of mine, who is german, visited a nazi concentration camp some years ago, which was a big deal for him.
There he heard the following conversation between an american couple:

"I wonder where the gas chambers are at"
"Oh they had some, but they never used them"
"Oh...what a pity"

My friend was VERY offended by that, and a certainly understand why. It wasnt a very sensible thing to say.

Thanks for your replys. I just want to make it clear that although the USA is hated by quite a few people thoughout the world, most people hate your goverment NOT the people of the US. Even though you elected G W Bush (what the hell is that about? lol). While I think September 11th was a atrocity, it gives the people of the US a opportunity to look within and see why people are willing to go to such extremes... but sadly this is not happening at the moment.

This is quite a bit more extreme than my feelings but is quite touching, nether the less,(I am not Palestinian, I don't know if my views would be like this if I was?) please read -

Why I hate America

By Khalid Amayreh

I would be dishonest if I said I didn't hate the American government. I
do hate it, so really, so deeply and, yes, so rightly.

America is the tormentor of my people. It is to me, as a Palestinian,
what Nazi Germany was to the Jews. America is the all-powerful devil
that spreads oppression and death in my neighborhood. How can I not hate
this "great Satan," the evil empire? Does anyone expect people to love
their tormentors?

America has been, and continues to be, the sponsor, enabler, protector,
and justifier of my people's misery for the last fifty years.

America is the author of 53 years of suffering, death, bereavement,
occupation, oppression, homelessness, and victimization.

America is the usurper of my people's right to human rights, democracy,
civil liberties, development, and dignified life.

America is the abettor and financier of Israeli occupation, apartheid,
repression, terror, and territorial aggrandizement.all at my people's
expense.

America is the protector, maintainer, sustainer and guarantor of
despotism, dictatorship, dynastic fiefdoms, and brutal autocracies,
theocracies, oligarchies, and monarchies.

America is the evil power that denies my people their "freedoms and
democracy."

America is the tyrant, global dictatorship that robs hundreds of
millions of Arabs and Muslims of their right to freely elect their
governments and rulers because corporate America dreads the outcome of
democracy in the Muslim world.

America treats me and my people as "children of a lesser God."

In fact, in the final analysis, America offers me one of two choices:
Either I submissively accept perpetual enslavement and oppression or
become an Osama bin Laden. Honestly, there is not a third choice, if
there is one let us see it.

I'm not exaggerating at all, as I know that the distance between being
tormented by America's oppressive hegemony and being converted or
mesmerized into bin-Ladenism is shorter and smaller than many would
think, including the so-called experts in Washington.

In fact, I dare say that the first inevitably leads to the second in a
straightforward cause-effect relationship.

So, please America, don't make me an Osama bin Laden.

I don't want to be one. I hate to kill innocent people, for, in our
religion, killing an innocent human-being consigns the killer straight
to hell. And I don't want to go to hell.

But I don't want to stay in America's hell, either.

In short, it is virtually impossible for me, as indeed is the case for
most Palestinians, Arabs, or Muslims, not to hate America so much.

For me, in order not to hate America, I would have to be imbecile,
bereft of dignity, or without senses and feelings. completely numb.

Only infra-humans and quasi-beasts wouldn't hate their evil tormentors
and grave-diggers. And America is the Palestinian people's ultimate
tormentor and grave-digger, as well as the oppressor and killer of
millions around the world.

In fact, finding an Arab in these days that doesn't hate America would
be like searching for a Jew who is infatuated with Hitler's Germany. Are
there Jews who adore the Nazis?

Are there still Arabs and Muslims who identify with the indirect, but no
less-real, perpetrator of the massacres of Qana, Sabra and Shatilla, and
now Beit Rima. Maybe there still are some, but I'm sure they soon will
disappear. I know that a wealthy Saudi Emir recently made some
sycophantic remarks about being "an ally of America." However, it is
extremely unlikely that he didn't mean what he said. It would be
scandalous if he did, indeed.

I know that "hate" is evil, at least a passive evil. And I, personally,
really strive not to allow my deep hate for the American government and
its murderous policies be transformed from the static form to the
dynamic form.

However, others, who may even hate America more than I do, will not be
able to exercise as much self-control, as much suppression of their
grievances, and as much "wisdom." But Static hate is ultimately a frozen
rage, awaiting the moment of explosion.

I know hate can be blind and deadly. But, I also know that oppression,
as the Holy Qura'n clearly states, is worse than murder. Doesn't Islam's
holy Book declare that "wal-fitnatu Ashaddu minal-qatl?"

Hence, I try, even strive, to make my hate for America, as rational as
possible, as constructive as possible, even as human as possible. This
is not because America deserves to be treated humanely.

The exterminators of 1.5 million Iraqi children, for the purpose of
punishing one man, would never deserve to be treated well, or respected.

They are despicable mass murders of the Hitler's ilk.

I try to control my hate, because my goal is to live in love and peace,
not to hate and be hated by others.

My goal is to be free, free from Israel's US-sponsored and US-funded
oppression and occupation.

I want to be free from apartheid. What is wrong or objectionable about
wanting to be free from apartheid? I want to be free from suffering
which transcends reality.

I want to be free from a life of roadblocks, checkpoints, detention
camps, closed-military zones, "targeted killing," land-confiscation,
home-demolition, and, yes, daily massacres.

I also want to be free from hate, even hate for America. But I know too
well that I can't be free from the effect until I am free from the
cause, and the cause is America's greed, rapacity and hegemony.

All we want is to be left alone and allowed to live a normal life and
exercise our God-given rights and freedoms. like other human beings. Is
this asking for too much?

Please, America, don't make me an Osama bin Laden.

[This message has been edited by hex (edited January 29, 2002).]

[Phreakmeister]

America bombed Iraq and Yugoslavia for not meeting UN resolutions. Ok, fair enough. But Israel keeps on ignoring UN resolutions, ever since 1948. No actions taken here. Since 1989 there is a resolution against the death penalty throughout the world, so including the US. Has the US taken action? No. They want other countries to meet UN resolutions, but it's no problem for them and their allies not to.

The US wanted terrorists to be brought to justice, or justice brought to the terrorists. But when there are plans for an International Crimes Court in The Hague, then all of a sudden the US grants itself the right to use the army to free Americans. How hypocrite can it get?

The US says it fights against dictatorship, and wants to establish democracy throughout the world. So that's why they support China, but not Taiwan. That's why they support Saudi-Arabia, but not Iran. Doesn't really make sense to me. Claiming to fight for democracy, and then supporting dictatorial regimes throughout the world.
That's why they supported Pinochet to overthrow Allende. That's why they helped fascist revolutions throughout Latin-America. Bolivia, Guatemala, Argentina, Brazil, Guyana, Paraguay, Chile, Peru, Ecuador, Panama. Etcetera etcetera etcetera.

America claims to fight against racism and discrimination. Still it is the country of the likes of Martin Luther King and Malcolm X. South Africa and the US were the most racist regimes throughout the world. But okay, that's the past. There's no point in blaming current Americans for a racist system of the past. But still, more black people get the death penalty than white people, although there is no difference between the number of black and white criminals. Still racial profiling is widely used and accepted. Still it is illegal to join the communist party, but it is legal to join the Ku-Klux Klan. Still the US walks away from an anti-racism conference (in Durban).

Although I support a lot of the American people (but there are b@$t@rd$ among them, just like anywhere), September 11th was the own fault of the American politicians. This is what they could have expected. The American people are the victims, but the American politicians are guilty.

[This message has been edited by Phreakmeister (edited January 30, 2002).]

Totally agree Phreakmeister. It's the hypocrisy that annoys me the most.

[ogb]

I was too lazy to read all the text, but there are lots of such sites in the Internet. Usually they are from very left organisations and exaggerating a lot, although certainly there is some truth behind. For most of the youth in Europe the USA is still the country no 1, which also gives a basic aspect for every hatred: envy.

@PM: I strongly reject your last statement. Your mixing up important legal expressions. Guilt is a term in any crime for making the culprit being responsible. Without guilt, you can't judge someone. By saying "it's the guilt of the American politics", then you say hand in hand that the Taliban and their troups weren't responsible. I hope that you didn't want to state that.

The American politics surely happens because of their own interests - which country does it differently? They are not the world police, the UN has kind of this function. And because the US were helping in some conflicts, it cannot mean that they have to solve all. You see what fighting the terrorism does with their state budget. Wars are expensive. Again, surely the USA isn't free of mistakes, but as in real life: the one who does a lot offers a wider range for criticism and attacks.

Last point: it is pervert way to blame the USA for the attacks on Sep 11. No country had to expect such attacks, and in no country such an attack can nearly be justified. It's mixing up culprit and victim to say that the American politics are the reason for Sep 11. The Taliban and their supporters are responsible - and nobody else.

[Phreakmeister]

Well, if you do that, and say that September 11th was the fault of the Taliban, then you're making a couple of crucial mistakes.
First of all:
What caused the attacks, was not hatred of freedom, it was hatred of American foreign policy. And the only ones to be blamed for American foreign policy, are American politicians.
Secondly:
By saying it was the Taliban, you imply that only the Taliban hates the US. Which is a big mistake. As we've seen in Seattle, Goteborg, Prague, Nice, Genova, everywhere, the hatred is also felt among educated and uneducated caucasian males and females. Not just among fundamentalist islamic men.


Guilt doesn't just imply the legal term, where there is a culprit and a victim. Sure, there is a culprit (Al Qaeda), and there is a victim (those who lost their lives). But guilt can also be defined as "being the cause of what happened". "It was their fault". That is also a form of guilt. And although there surely are good and decent politicians on Capitol Hill, the American foreign policy, which is the cause of the hatred, which in its turn caused the attacks, is not Afghani policy, it's American policy.

No country had to expect such attacks

Well, then I got news for you: The CIA saw it coming. They knew back in 1995 that there were plans for flying two planes into the WTC. Back then, they thought: What kind of a pilot would do that? Even with a gun at the head, any pilot would fly into the sea or crash into the ground, instead of flying into the WTC.
However, they forgot that Al Qaeda might be training pilots themselves. And how human that mistake may have been, it caused the death of 3000 people.
But okay, mistakes can happen, that's human. But then what do you think about this?
Back in June or July, the CIA asked the Pakistani foreign secretary for assistance in bombings on Afghanistan, which were to start in the middle of October........
Now who was to blame for it, you were saying?



[This message has been edited by Phreakmeister (edited January 30, 2002).]

[ogb]

I still say that it's the fault of the Taliban and of nobody else. The action they did was killing several thousands of people by crashing an airplane in a skyscraper - it was not the US foreign politics who did it.

Do you honestly believe what you are telling there? This is legalizing terrorism. With your explanation I could come over and say "I don't like China's politics, so I have the right to kill the Chinese politicians". That's BS. The free society is what they fight, the US politics is just a part of it. And of course the Taliban (among the others who planned and comitted the attack) are the only ones responsible for it. Other hate the US as well for different reasons, but they did not take part. Again your explanation would mean "Murderer killed person X, I hated person X as well, so I also commited the murder". This can't be true.

With "no country had to expect such attacks" I meant in general that it isn't justified to attack a country like that.

So, if you say that it is the US foreign politics and doesn't have anything to do with Islamistic fundamentalism, how do you explain that the German BND detected single groups of bin Laden fighters a couple of years ago and prevented attacks on a market in Strasbourg and the metro in Paris? What does France have to do with US foreign politics?

Even if you don't like the US politics, it can never become a legal excuse for attacks of any kind.

I think it is a very easy way out to just say "oh well, their just jealous", Because when you say that you take all blame away from yourself. I live in a democracy, I enjoy every freedom that you do. I'm not any kind of far left activist, I'm just a 'normal' person.

I think that most Americans don't realise the extent that the US is disliked (maybe not hated) thoughout the world.

But, I do agree with you that no country deserves or should expect such horrific attacks.

I live in Europe, and I think as Europe becomes more powerful, we will begin to stand up to American bullying, through trade sanctions etc. I think that this is the way forward, definiatly not bombings and killing.

[ogb]

I don't say that jealousy is the only reason. The US is doing a lot that offends their religious belief.

But of course I take all blame off the USA. You may not mix up the motivation of the culprit with the acting of the victim. Criminal laws of the world give some excuses for the culprit, but all demand a emergency situation in which no other way of acting is possible. Sorry, that's not nearly existing here.

I still say that it's pervert to blame the victim and understand the culprit. But that's the way European judging is taking place these days - like everything can't be seen normal but turns to the extremes, e.g. like seeing the USA. Lots dislike them, but lots still love them.

Europe is moving forward? Very slowly, Germany is moving backwards. But even if Europe is improving, then only because having the same system as the USA. Punishing the USA economically? Where do you live? It's not possible, the economy here would crash.

If you don't like the US politics (which is nearly the same as the European), what would you make different? I don't see a better system in the whole world.

And I think it's time to stop the fairy tale that the Taliban wanted to improve the situation for the people in Afghanistan and the other Islamistic countries. It's a struggle for power and their ideology, nothing else. If their motivation is better than the US politics, then I'm living in a false world.

[This message has been edited by ogb (edited January 31, 2002).]

I have been all around this world. Let me say this.

People only hate the USA because they're not here. Anyone that tells you otherwise is lying.

There is no other place that affords the people as much freedom and oppertunity.

People say the USA is racist. How can you explain the fact that we have the most diverse population on the planet. If course there will be trouble between very different cultures but give me a break. Most other countries don't allow immigration.

It's easy to blame USA for your own problems but why ignore all the good that we have done?

You'd all be freakin' goose stepping if it wasn't for us. And then, you'd all be communist if not for us. And then you'd be bombed by terrorists much more if it wasn't for us.

I may not like being the world COPS but I don't think taking for granted the freedoms we fight so hard for, for the wholw planet, is very snlightened of you USA haters..

Let me make one thing clear, I do NOT envy the USA. You say that "There is no other place that affords the people as much freedom and oppertunity" I would disagree, most countrys here in Europe have the same level of freedom and opportunity that you do.

Im not saying the US is the cause of all the problems in the world, nor am I saying that the US should fix all the worlds problems.

I'm saying one thing - The USA is NOT any better than most countrys in the world. We have this stuffed down our throats all the time. You have problems just like the rest of us...

US citizens seem to accept all the propaganda without question, just look at the films that are out at the moment e.g Black Hawk Down. We get your news channels over here, they are a joke there is 95% American stories, of which absolutly none actually criticise or question the way the goverment are handling things. And this is on the so-called 'Europe' version.

I think Americans should start peering over the massive wall they've built around themselves and start to see the real world.

[MacReady]

Originally posted by hex:
I think Americans should start peering over the massive wall they've built around themselves and start to see the real world.

that's a very great line, and I totally agree. Do u mean peering as peeping?

[Serendipity]

People only hate the USA because they're not here. Anyone that tells you otherwise is lying.

Bonker, this is untrue, I'm afraid, and quite a lot of your post is questionable. I don't hate the USA, I have many American friends, I think that what happened on 9-11 was atrocious, I don't blame the USA for it - but even I don't particularly want to be there.

Americans are: wonderful, wise, drunk, beastly, drunk, violent, cultured, ignorant, stupid, arrogant, pious, patriotic, apathetic, motivated, and so on - JUST LIKE THE REST OF US. America doesn't afford her citizens opportunities any more than any other developed country.

I am very cautious about American corporations, which seem to be running the show.

As for terrorists, my country has been bombed for the last 30 years by the IRA, which raises its cash (through NORAID) in the USA. Thanks.

Goose-stepping? As I understand it, it was touch and go as to whether or not the USA threw its weight behind us or the Nazis. Fortunately, Japan tipped the balance.

Originally posted by hex:
We get your news channels over here, they are a joke there is 95% American stories, of which absolutly none actually criticise or question the way the goverment are handling things.

You are mis-informed. There are many many Americans that question, criticize, and fight our government's actions.

It is true that most Americans are not well educated about things foreign. But that doesn't change the simple fact that America is the greatest nation on Earth. And you are welcome to share in the glory.

http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif Hehehe ok off my sopa-box.

I really do like most other cultures and people. In person, there is not one instance where I did not get along with another individual. That's not to say there aren't arguments... I think you know what I mean.

Why isn't anyone talking about how much they hate China, or Russia, or France for that matter? Because those countries have done NOTHING to help you so you have zero resentment left over about how they "should" have helped.

Puleeze...

Originally posted by Serendipity:
Bonker, this is untrue, I'm afraid, and quite a lot of your post is questionable. I don't hate the USA, I have many American friends, I think that what happened on 9-11 was atrocious, I don't blame the USA for it - but even I don't particularly want to be there.

Americans are: wonderful, wise, drunk, beastly, drunk, violent, cultured, ignorant, stupid, arrogant, pious, patriotic, apathetic, motivated, and so on - JUST LIKE THE REST OF US. America doesn't afford her citizens opportunities any more than any other developed country.

I am very cautious about American corporations, which seem to be running the show.

As for terrorists, my country has been bombed for the last 30 years by the IRA, which raises its cash (through NORAID) in the USA. Thanks.

Goose-stepping? As I understand it, it was touch and go as to whether or not the USA threw its weight behind us or the Nazis. Fortunately, Japan tipped the balance.

Well spoken thank you.

Yeah I know i was being wonderful, wise, drunk, beastly, drunk, violent, cultured, ignorant, stupid, arrogant, pious, patriotic, apathetic, motivated, and so on...

My Pop once told me never to talk politics or religion with friends.

One last question to stir the pot. I'm not sure about NORAID but... Do you think the IRA will stop bombing when the UK ends it's illegal occupation of Ireland?

Bonker
Snowboarder, Programmer, Musician, Friend

[This message has been edited by Bonker (edited January 31, 2002).]

[MacReady]

Originally posted by Bonker:

Why isn't anyone talking about how much they hate China, or Russia, or France for that matter? Because those countries have done NOTHING to help you so you have zero resentment left over about how they "should" have helped.
Puleeze...


China, Russia, France tend to leave us alone. They have alot of problems in their countries to deal with. We could leave them alone too. I dont feel bothered by China, Russia, or France cuz they dont hassle us for money or our problems, but we hassle them. Many missionary from America go to China and other countries to preach. Now Bush relationship with China is friendly cuz Bush and his people wanna China's oil. What I heard, America is building pipe from China to somewhere in Pacific Ocean taking their oil for our profits. Of course, it America milking their country for only America's benefits. Bush dont care that China is communist country that we shouldnt have relationship with them since we are democracy country, cuz America politicals are more capitalism than democracy today. Yes, America did help other countries, sometimes it for good reasons, sometimes it for bribe. Most of times, helping other countries is not usually for just being generous, it has to do what America wants or needs through agreements.

Originally posted by Bonker:

But that doesn't change the simple fact that America is the greatest nation on Earth. And you are welcome to share in the glory.



Thats great im glad you are patriotic about your country, but please don't stuff it down our throats all the time.

MacReady: Peer vi - to look very carefully or hard, especially at somebody or something that is difficult to see, often with narrowed eyes.

Lol, hope that helps http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif


[This message has been edited by hex (edited January 31, 2002).]

[Phreakmeister]

I am not, and I have never been justifying fundamentalism or terrorism. All I am saying is this:

The ambiguous US foreign policy caused widespread hatred throughout the world. Some sick minds thought, that the actions of the US gave them the right to do what they did. I completely disagree with their actions. But what I am saying is this:
Whatever happened, was a consequence of hatred against the US, and the only one to blame for that, are the American politicians.

In other words:
They initiated a process, which resulted in the mass murder we've seen on September 11th. Although that is the result of sick minds, what caused them to hate the US is America's hypocritical foreign policy.


No, it was not freedom and democracy which was under attack. What was under attack, was America's foreign policy. As you probably know, on September 11th symbols were targeted. Was the Statue of Liberty under attack? Was Philadelphia (where the Declaration of Independence was written and signed) under attack? NO
What was under attack, was the WTC (the economic heart of the US, together with Wall Street) and the Pentagon (the military heart, and one of the political hearts of the US). Together they formed the heart of American foreign policy. And that is what was under attack. Although the sense of freedom and democracy may have been damaged, that was not what was under attack.

[ogb]

Originally posted by Phreakmeister:

No, it was not freedom and democracy which was under attack. What was under attack, was America's foreign policy. As you probably know, on September 11th symbols were targeted. Was the Statue of Liberty under attack? Was Philadelphia (where the Declaration of Independence was written and signed) under attack? NO
What was under attack, was the WTC (the economic heart of the US, together with Wall Street) and the Pentagon (the military heart, and one of the political hearts of the US). Together they formed the heart of American foreign policy. And that is what was under attack. Although the sense of freedom and democracy may have been damaged, that was not what was under attack.

And what did bin Laden announce as further possible attacks? The parliament in London, the Reichstag building in Berlin, the Eiffel tower in Paris - symbols of the US foreign politics? The WTC is the symbol for the economy of the world - that's what the W is for: WORLD trade center, not US trade center. For sure there are more symbols, but they had to focus on just some of them.

The German BND know since 1997 about possible attacks on Germany of the bin Laden groups - it's not the US alone what they have in mind.

[Serendipity]

One last question to stir the pot. I'm not sure about NORAID but... Do you think the IRA will stop bombing when the UK ends it's illegal occupation of Ireland?

I'm more aware than most Brits of the blood on our hands, and quietly I'm sympathetic to the Republican cause. The British gov't would love to wash its hands of Northern Ireland and hand back the stolen six counties (not that you'll ever hear them say so). The only solution that makes any sense to me is for all British army and police forces to pull out and let the IRA and Orangemen fight it out until there's a clear winner. However, this is of course unacceptable and will never happen - Ulster Protestants would see it as the greatest possible betrayal. It is, therefore, a near-insoluble problem, some 900 years old. Some progress has been made recently, with the peace process and the Good Friday Agreement. Sinn Fein MP's have been granted use of office space in Westminster.

To answer your question: I don't know. As soon as one part of the IRA sets off down the road of peaceful solution, another part (such as the Real IRA, responsible for the Omagh, Ealing, and (I believe) Canary Wharf bombings) springs up and starts the campaign. To complicate matters, there are Protestant paramilitaries too, such as the UVF. There's an escalation of straightforward sectarian violence at the moment, which shows how strongly the people feel about their society. It's a bloody stupid mess, which nobody seems willing to stop.

Originally posted by Serendipity:
To answer your question: I don't know. As soon as one part of the IRA sets off down the road of peaceful solution, another part (such as the Real IRA, responsible for the Omagh, Ealing, and (I believe) Canary Wharf bombings) springs up and starts the campaign. To complicate matters, there are Protestant paramilitaries too, such as the UVF. There's an escalation of straightforward sectarian violence at the moment, which shows how strongly the people feel about their society. It's a bloody stupid mess, which nobody seems willing to stop.

I feel strongly about these issues also... for my roots run deep and strong in that part of the world.

Originally posted by hex:
Thats great im glad you are patriotic about your country, but please don't stuff it down our throats all the time.


Yeah I'm just having some fun... remember the smilies and the laughter after that statement.

Bonker
Snowboarder, Programmer, Musician, Friend, American, Scientist, Teacher, Student, Shooter, Mountain Biker, Hunter, Fisherman, etc...

If someone wanted to bring the "American Empire" down they would be better served if they did it through the students of this country. Look at the sixties and the turmoil that was going on here.

The stupidest thing they could have done is to outright attack us. Now we have never been more strong or committed as a country to "win" at all costs.

Corner a wounded animal and you will be hurt. Corner a Grizzley Bear in the prime of it's life and you are just plain dumb.

Our politicians are no worse than elsewhere in the world... the only difference is that we have the strongest nation and that's all.

Think about your co-workers that get more "perks" and have nicer offices or frequent invitations to lunch. You probably talk about then in a similar tone.

Just get over it. We will crumble like all "empires" before. It may take houndreds of years but it WILL happen. In the mean time... make the best of it... eh?

[Phreakmeister]

I must say that I'm sympathetic to the American people. But at the same time it's probably obvious that I'm not really fond of American politics.

Maybe there were plans to attack Europe (I wouldn't be surprised if it were true). But think about this:
If they had the "strength" to evade the CIA and the FBI, don't you think they would certainly have been able to evade the secret services of European countries?
Well, not having attacked Europe, with this knowledge in mind, sure must mean something.
Apparently they didn't hate Europe enough to carry on with their plans. (Or perhaps the CIA and the FBI have been sleeping all the time, but that sounds almost too bizarre to be true)

Well, the WTC-concept may be the economic heart of the world, the WTC in New York is (or should I say: was) the economic heart of the US.

------------------
"Okay Scotty, very funny, now beam up my clothes"

[This message has been edited by Phreakmeister (edited February 01, 2002).]

[MacReady]

Also I dont like America Politicals and commonwealth people supporting WTO. Many people in world are against WTO. I remember riots in Seattle, people were protesting against WTO meeting there. We can vote for UN but not WTO, people in WTO does secretly voting. WTO doesnt care that it cause high unemployment rate in America as long they get profits. Also WTO doesnt care about causing pollution in other countries by building factories where cheaper employee wages making job available in America drying up. Clinton and Bush were part in supporting WTO.

[Serendipity]

Originally posted by Bonker:
I feel strongly about these issues also... for my roots run deep and strong in that part of the world.

The irony is the Irish are d*mn decent people. I've liked almost every one that I've met (I've only been once to Ireland, for about 10 days. Went to the Cork Jazz Festival http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif), no matter what political or religious stripe. But the people who're running things, whether political, paramilitary, or whatever, I wish there was one among them who could unite everybody (or at least the majority (or so I gather) who want a lasting peace) and steer a course forwards. But: to do anything you have to understand and accept the quagmire that is Anglo-Irish politics and history.

[Sephirstein]

"The US imposes its laws against music and video copying throughout the world, excerising extra-territorial `jurisdiction'. Because of the use by pathetically weak encryption by the US music and film industry, the USA has a law called the DMCA, which forbids decryption of music and videos. But people in Europe and Russia have decrypted these formats. Therefore these people are prosecuted in the USA for acts which are legal in other countries. One prominent example is the CSS encryption, which enables US companies to charge more in Europe than in the USA, Asia or Europe, for instance. It also prevents linux users from playing video disks.

This kind of market distortion is the opposite to globalisation and is anti-competitive. This shows that the USA lies when they say they are in favour of globalisation and free competition. They are only in favour of globalisation and free competition in market sectors where the USA is strong. In the markets where the USA is weak, they enforce anti-competitive and anti-trade protectionist measures, and laws to distort markets in their favour."

Much of what you say about the USA is true...But Japan is about 100 times worse in the domain you just discussed here.

Originally posted by Bonker:
I have been all around this world. Let me say this.

People only hate the USA because they're not here. Anyone that tells you otherwise is lying.

There is no other place that affords the people as much freedom and oppertunity.

People say the USA is racist. How can you explain the fact that we have the most diverse population on the planet. If course there will be trouble between very different cultures but give me a break. Most other countries don't allow immigration.

It's easy to blame USA for your own problems but why ignore all the good that we have done?

You'd all be freakin' goose stepping if it wasn't for us. And then, you'd all be communist if not for us. And then you'd be bombed by terrorists much more if it wasn't for us.

I may not like being the world COPS but I don't think taking for granted the freedoms we fight so hard for, for the wholw planet, is very snlightened of you USA haters..

You said that, let me ask this:

Opportunity for who?White people, riiiight!!! And don't tell me that blacks, reds and other non-whites are lazy, because then YOU would be lying! The opportunities you brag about aren't there for the others.

Freedom? Don't make me laugh! Anyone who nowadays says something inappropriate about TWAT almost gets killed. Besides that, what about those who are not Christian???Huh?Discrimination on religious grounds is kind of a big topic on your side of the atlantic...

You're racist, al right...The most diverse culture, huh? Did you forget that you first kicked the natives in the dirt and dragged the africans to america. And when you couldn't keep slaves anymore, you just kicked them in the dirt as well.

And we're free because of you...I'll admit to that, but you only came because Adolf came too close, so don't give me that nobility crap!...Besides that, we (The Dutch) have always kicked userpers back out by ourselves. It may take a while (80 years to get the Spanish out), but we managed...

What makes you think we would be bombed by terrorists if not for the US?? We don't bully the world around...Don't you get it? Part of you guys being bombed is because you bully everyone around.

Although it may look like it, I DON'T (REALLY I DON'T) hate America...But you guys should stop banging yourself on the chest and lie about yourselves.

[Phreakmeister]

Originally posted by Bonker:
I have been all around this world. Let me say this.

People only hate the USA because they're not here. Anyone that tells you otherwise is lying.

There is no other place that affords the people as much freedom and oppertunity.


So that is why Americans are seeking asylum in The Netherlands? Because they feel they got too much freedom in America?


------------------
Do you believe in death after life?

[Sjax]

Why do americans always take credit for the second world war. USA didnt win it by themselves, it was an allied victory in which Soviet, Canada, Great Britain, France (after they had been liberated) and other countries participated.

I think most people would agree that Soviet made the biggest effort in this. They lost more than 20 million people in that war.

[Phreakmeister]

And over here in The Netherlands it was Poland and Canada who liberated us. Poland liberated almost the entire south of the country, Canada liberated the north of the country. The only time the US tried to liberate us, was during operation Market Garden, and that became a huge failure.

------------------
Do you believe in death after life?

[ogb]

Originally posted by Sjax:
Why do americans always take credit for the second world war. USA didnt win it by themselves, it was an allied victory in which Soviet, Canada, Great Britain, France (after they had been liberated) and other countries participated.

I think most people would agree that Soviet made the biggest effort in this. They lost more than 20 million people in that war.

The Soviets lost most people, but without the US Germany probably had won the war especially in the west. They already had Paris when the US entered. Britain is another topic, they would have defended all attacks. The Soviets were completely inferior to the Germans, especially because of their antique equipment. Heading to the east was no problem at all, just the winter stopped them.

[ogb]

Originally posted by Sjax:
Why do americans always take credit for the second world war. USA didnt win it by themselves, it was an allied victory in which Soviet, Canada, Great Britain, France (after they had been liberated) and other countries participated.

I think most people would agree that Soviet made the biggest effort in this. They lost more than 20 million people in that war.

That's nothing to be proud of, but without the US Germany would have conquered large parts of Europe. Britain was able to defend itself, France hardly was and the Soviets not at all. The Soviets were so much inferior with their equipment that it almost was an easy run for the German troups to conquer their area. The winter stopped the German troups, not the military power. The Soviets lost most people, but they didn't win the war themselves.

[Sjax]

Ogb: I agree that the war wouldnt have been won without USA. But I dont think it would have been won without Soviet or Britain either.

The US sure can take some credit for WW2, but not all of it.

[Phreakmeister]

The Soviet-Union suffered from a huge cleansing within the top of the military, carried out by Stalin just before Germany invaded the Soviet-Union. And that's why Germany could invade the Soviet-Union that far: the Soviet military had to be rebuilt from scratch.

And without the US the war would probably have been won just as well. It would only have taken a couple of years longer. Because remember: planning for D-Day started way before the US joined the war.


------------------
Do you believe in death after life?

[ogb]

The Soviets would have won, not the allied troups without the US. And luckily the US came, otherwise whole Germany would have been communist area. Except the left intellectuals, most Germans are still thankful for it.

[Phreakmeister]

1) The Soviet troups were part of the allied troups as well. In WW2, just like in WW1, it was the central forces against the allied forces.

2) The British, French, Canadian, Australian and New-Zealand troups would have beaten Germany as well. It would have taken them one or two years longer, but they would have managed it just as well.

------------------
Do you believe in death after life?

A few notes on the Soviet Union:

They had a non-agression pact with Germany at the start of the war and were okay with the German invasion of Poland and Eastern Union. The only reason they became an "ally" was because Hitler became greedy, violated the pact, and moved into the USSR.

While there is no official count as to how many Soviets were lost in the war, most estimates are at least 20 million people. I have seen the count as high as 30 million...

The Soviet equipment and tactics were VERY inferior to that of the Germans. In my opinion, one shouldn't think numbers of men lost is the same as that country's contribution to the war. Rather, look at how many troops of the enemy were lost because of that country. For example, in some battles, the Soviets lost up to 15 men for every 1 German killed....

------------------
Co-Owner
Bueno Technologies

[Phreakmeister]

True, but if Hitler had invaded the Soviet Union only a few months earlier, he would have gotten kicked out right away. In this case, the Germans turned out to be at exactly the right time at exactly the right place.

Number of casualty actually is a way of estimating the contribution. The Soviet Union sacrificed tens of millions of people for that cause. Let's plz pay some respect to them, and their survivors.

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Do you believe in death after life?

No, I'm not trying to downplay the Soviet losses, but I am trying to make a point. The point is that, well nevermind - too hard to explain....

------------------
Co-Owner
Bueno Technologies

[weldordave]

You are so wacked. Every sentence of that first post can be torn apart. Are you truly insane or can you share that smoke. What piss-ant country are from, anyway?

[~wildangel~]

Pretty please, no name calling, thats not nice...

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~Wildest lil angel~
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The Coffee shop (http://pub83.ezboard.com/bcosmiccoffeeshop)
*Nathans page* (http://www.geocities.com/jssejmsgrl/Nathanspage.html)~Chianas~ (http://pub12.ezboard.com/bchianassoapworld)

[aclu14]

I'm posting all of that on my webiste. How much space do you think it'll take up?

------------------
I'll think of a better sig when I feel like it! Now stop bothering me! :D

Join the Oppositionist Party! (http://www.geocities.com/lucifer_is_hungry/opinionated_online)

[MacReady]

It seemed that former russia knew they had inferior equipments and tactics, so they had to flood russia soldiers at battles against german, hoping german bullets ran out. wow one russia soldier is worth a bullet.

[Phreakmeister]

Has anyone in here ever heard of the "scorched earth"-tactics? Coz that's what Russia has done throughout its history against foreign invasions.
They lure the enemy deeper and deeper into the country, burning down everything which might come in the hands of the enemy, until the enemy feels the winter, and runs out of food and other things necessary for survival.
It helped kick Napoleon and Hitler out of Russia.

------------------
Do you believe in death after life?

[TV_Guy]

1) I think germany would have been beaten without US but Japan is another story. Australia and NZ almost copped it!!!
Even though they helped us win, it took the destruction of their navy at Pearl Harbour to act.

2) Whats with that flame post back there, people like that are half the problem with the US. Mind you if anything I have much more respect for Americans after getting involved in this forum, It's good to see that a few of them are intelligent and can structure arguments well and aren't anything like their counterparts in the chatrooms and such.

3) An American I don't respect: George Bush
What a turkey! After choking on a pretzel this guy goes and calls North Korea part of an "Axis of Evil" He's now visiting South Korea and most of the Koreans (North & South)really hate the guy! We all know where that leads... South and North Korea have been working hard the last few years to achieve a friendship, who is this guy's speechwriter?

[Phreakmeister]

Well, he showed his $tupid a$$ness once more. During his visit to Japan, at a press conference, he told the media that he and the Japanese prime minister Koizumi talked about devaluation (currency artificially losing value). This caused the yen to plummet at the currency markets. Traders immediately sold their yens, in a rage of frenzy.
Then, the White House came with a statement:
George Bush made a mistake. They didn't talk about devaluation, they talked about deflation (things in the supermarkets becoming cheaper)................

------------------
Do you believe in death after life?

[weldordave]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hex:
the geographical isolation of the USA, the fertile land which they took from the indigenous people (whom they largely exterminated), and their homogeneous language and culture.
weldordave says- You ever here how Germany tried to get Mexico to invade the US to keep us busy while the European thing was going on? Exterminating indigenous people??? You mean like the Spanish did to the Aztecs, Incas, Mexican Indians, SW American Indians? How bout what the Dutch did to the natives in the NE US? What the English did to the middle US natives? How about the French in Canada? Maybe all that gold and silver that Europe took from the indigenous people should be returned to Central and South America. We now have the tachnology to determine exactly where precious metal came from! GET OUT YOUR CROWN JEWELS!!!!
When other countries succeed in exporting to the USA, e.g. farm goods at 1/3 the cost of production, the USA puts on heavy tariffs and gives substantial support to US farmers. Current estimates are that 50% of US farm income comes from the government. The USA does not permit any other country to do this. weldordave says-- subsidies???? Like what Airbus gets to compete with the mighty Boeing????? If this is the case, why don't Asian countries allow American rice to be imported into their countries? THEY slap the heavy tarifs on it to protect their less efficient farmers. So I enjoy California rice at 1/20TH the cost of what Asia pays. Wake up, every country is capitalist as long as the powers that be are making a buck. BTW I think the US imports alot of Australian beef.(Go figure)
The USA stole vast areas of land from the Spanish empire to create California, Texas etc.
weldordave says--- You ever here of THE MEXICAN WAR?? THE ALAMO?? THE GADSDEN PURCHASE?? THE TEXAS REPUBLIC?? Later: PONCHO VILLA?? Wake up and smell the coffee!!!

Invasion of Haiti.
weldordave says-- UN ever here of it???
Invasion of Panama to get just one guy, Noriega, who happened to be a CIA employee who was conducting most of the cocaine trade from South America into the USA.weldordave says--- CIA??? What are you smokin'??
Invasion of Grenada.weldordave says-- "We just wanted to have a volleyball game with all those Cuban soldiers who weren't really there. But then they started shooting at us and........"

Support for Iraq against Iran in the Iraq-Iran war of the 1980s, despite the very well-known fact that Iraq attacked Iran pre-emptively without warning from the air in the expectation of destroying all of Iran's planes on the ground and occupying all of Iran. The Iraqis killed as many as 1 million Iranians. The Iraqis used chemical and biological weapons with US knowledge and acquiescence because of the US desire to punish Iran. The USA never forgives a country which has beaten or humiliated the USA. In punishment for the Iranians locking up 50 US citizens for 1 year, the USA caused the death of millions of Iranians. The USA still has punishing sanctions against Iran for no good reason.weldordave says----- **** right. Jealous or what? Don't screw with the Eagle. Ironically, Iran has been most cooperative with our Afganistan action. Roll over.
If the US goes to war with any country, it can use "Selective Availability" to remove GPS capability from any region of the earth - but the USA military ahve the decryption codes to use the GPS even if it is rendered completely useless to other nations. This makes it more difficult for non-US countries to aim cruise missiles, but it also cripples air travel and sea travel within the region.weldordave says---- Pretty cool, huh? Bet you wish YOUR country had this ability! Maybe you should invest in tachnology infrastructure.
USA requires other countries to permit US companies to bid for defence contracts, and they are believed to use echelon intercepts to find out the bids of their opposition. But foreign countries are not allowed to bid on US contracts mostly, because the US only trusts US citizens to work on US defence projects.weldordave says-- I think what you are talking about is an amendment that basically states that DOD contracts go to Americans. Though the Army did just but about 2 million black berets from China because no US supplier could handle the order.

When other countries have slight irregularities in voting procedures, the USA takes this as a pretext to impose heavy trade sanctions.weldordave says ---Please give an example of this vague claim.
African Americans were turned back from the polls in Florida because the officials knew that they would vote for the Democrats.weldordave says--- BULL****!
Along a similar line, the US insists on keeping medieval Roman measuring units, also called British Imperial units (acres, inches, feet, yards, furlongs, miles, pounds, ounces, hundredweights, imperial tons, gallons, fluid ounces etc.), because it is in the short-term interests of the US to do so. Consequently, every other country has to produce everything in dual units for the USA. The USA claims to be very modern, but is in actual fact the most backward bountry in the world in measuring units. Everybody else in the world can cope with metric units. So why can't the USA cope?
weldordave again says BULL****! Ever since Jimmy Carter was president we have learned both systems.I, myself, love the metric system! Very easy, and very accurate. I must have both metric and "standard" tools and use BOTH systems everyday! Even converting when necessary. (Brain exercise) Hey, how about the English and their positive ground approach on electricity!? "Lucas, the Crown Prince of Darkness"!! WOW! It sure is easy to make fun of other people, cultures and methods!
France required Yahoo to not sell Nazi memorabilia to French citizens. A US court overturned this. weldordave says---- freedom is freedom. If there was no market, there would be no sales.. Will you let your government tell you what to buy or not to buy?? If yes, please don't come to America; you will be very disappointed by the ability to make up your own mind!!!!!!!
The USA tries to export its gun culture/obsession to other countries.
weldordave says---- NO! We like it very much that you do not have guns!!!!
But the USA thinks that their constitution is the best in the world, and anyone who is different must be stupid. They also like to sell more guns.
weldordave says--- Actually, out of 16 guns that I own, only 2 are American. The 2 that I work with everyday. The rest are British(303 SMLE), German (Mauser, Stier-Mannlicher), Russian(AK), Swiss, Swede, and so forth. We do not want to sell you guns. But rather, YOU want to take advantage of our laws to sell US guns. And I thank you, the 8mm Mauser and the 303 Brit are without a doubt the best rifles ever made!
Participation in the mass murder of hundreds of thousands of civilians in terrorist attacks on Germany in the Second World War.weldordave says--- WHAT? Germany tried to invent the "human shield" around their war production facilities. Didn't work, did it? Or, how about this: "Sorry, London, those buzz bomb factories are too close to civilian housing. You'll have to live with the constant, indescriminate bombing of your country until the Dutch and French can stop it!"

Use of nuclear weapons against hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians in Japan in the second world war. This was not how the war ended actually. The Japanese had been trying very hard to surrender
weldordave says---- Ever hear of Okinawa???
the US refused to accept their surrender because they wanted to try out the nuclear weaponsweldordave says---- The US refused Japanese surrender because they wanted their Emporer to reign supreme. Would you accept such a condition from Germany regarding Hitler???? You'd best bone up on your history. Do you know what an invasion of the Japanese home islands would have cost?? In AMERICAN LIVES? Too bad you weren't there to lead the first assault!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
which were ready too late for the European theatre for which they were intended. Thus the USA prolonged the war with Japan so as to be able to test the effects of nuclear weapons on hundreds of thousands of civilians.
Weldordave says ---- The God-****ed bombs weren't ready till then you *******.
The USA fire-bombed Tokyo, killing hundreds of thousands of civilians, simply with the intention of terrorising the population. This is a serious war crime.weldordave says---- THIS IS WAR you ******. JUST LIKE LONDON, BERLIN, STALINGRAD, and OREGON! YES OREGON! Where is your outcry for the school teacher and children killed in OREGON by Japanese bomb balloons??????????????
Stop here, I'll finish ripping this malcantent diatribe apart later. Respond if you have the guts or THE FACTS.

[weldordave]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hex:
the geographical isolation of the USA, the fertile land which they took from the indigenous people (whom they largely exterminated), and their homogeneous language and culture.
weldordave says- You ever here how Germany tried to get Mexico to invade the US to keep us busy while the European thing was going on? Exterminating indigenous people??? You mean like the Spanish did to the Aztecs, Incas, Mexican Indians, SW American Indians? How bout what the Dutch did to the natives in the NE US? What the English did to the middle US natives? How about the French in Canada? Maybe all that gold and silver that Europe took from the indigenous people should be returned to Central and South America. We now have the tachnology to determine exactly where precious metal came from! GET OUT YOUR CROWN JEWELS!!!!
When other countries succeed in exporting to the USA, e.g. farm goods at 1/3 the cost of production, the USA puts on heavy tariffs and gives substantial support to US farmers. Current estimates are that 50% of US farm income comes from the government. The USA does not permit any other country to do this. weldordave says-- subsidies???? Like what Airbus gets to compete with the mighty Boeing????? If this is the case, why don't Asian countries allow American rice to be imported into their countries? THEY slap the heavy tarifs on it to protect their less efficient farmers. So I enjoy California rice at 1/20TH the cost of what Asia pays. Wake up, every country is capitalist as long as the powers that be are making a buck. BTW I think the US imports alot of Australian beef.(Go figure)
The USA stole vast areas of land from the Spanish empire to create California, Texas etc.
weldordave says--- You ever here of THE MEXICAN WAR?? THE ALAMO?? THE GADSDEN PURCHASE?? THE TEXAS REPUBLIC?? Later: PONCHO VILLA?? Wake up and smell the coffee!!!

Invasion of Haiti.
weldordave says-- UN ever here of it???
Invasion of Panama to get just one guy, Noriega, who happened to be a CIA employee who was conducting most of the cocaine trade from South America into the USA.weldordave says--- CIA??? What are you smokin'??
Invasion of Grenada.weldordave says-- "We just wanted to have a volleyball game with all those Cuban soldiers who weren't really there. But then they started shooting at us and........"

Support for Iraq against Iran in the Iraq-Iran war of the 1980s, despite the very well-known fact that Iraq attacked Iran pre-emptively without warning from the air in the expectation of destroying all of Iran's planes on the ground and occupying all of Iran. The Iraqis killed as many as 1 million Iranians. The Iraqis used chemical and biological weapons with US knowledge and acquiescence because of the US desire to punish Iran. The USA never forgives a country which has beaten or humiliated the USA. In punishment for the Iranians locking up 50 US citizens for 1 year, the USA caused the death of millions of Iranians. The USA still has punishing sanctions against Iran for no good reason.weldordave says----- **** right. Jealous or what? Don't screw with the Eagle. Ironically, Iran has been most cooperative with our Afganistan action. Roll over.
If the US goes to war with any country, it can use "Selective Availability" to remove GPS capability from any region of the earth - but the USA military ahve the decryption codes to use the GPS even if it is rendered completely useless to other nations. This makes it more difficult for non-US countries to aim cruise missiles, but it also cripples air travel and sea travel within the region.weldordave says---- Pretty cool, huh? Bet you wish YOUR country had this ability! Maybe you should invest in tachnology infrastructure.
USA requires other countries to permit US companies to bid for defence contracts, and they are believed to use echelon intercepts to find out the bids of their opposition. But foreign countries are not allowed to bid on US contracts mostly, because the US only trusts US citizens to work on US defence projects.weldordave says-- I think what you are talking about is an amendment that basically states that DOD contracts go to Americans. Though the Army did just but about 2 million black berets from China because no US supplier could handle the order.

When other countries have slight irregularities in voting procedures, the USA takes this as a pretext to impose heavy trade sanctions.weldordave says ---Please give an example of this vague claim.
African Americans were turned back from the polls in Florida because the officials knew that they would vote for the Democrats.weldordave says--- BULL****!
Along a similar line, the US insists on keeping medieval Roman measuring units, also called British Imperial units (acres, inches, feet, yards, furlongs, miles, pounds, ounces, hundredweights, imperial tons, gallons, fluid ounces etc.), because it is in the short-term interests of the US to do so. Consequently, every other country has to produce everything in dual units for the USA. The USA claims to be very modern, but is in actual fact the most backward bountry in the world in measuring units. Everybody else in the world can cope with metric units. So why can't the USA cope?
weldordave again says BULL****! Ever since Jimmy Carter was president we have learned both systems.I, myself, love the metric system! Very easy, and very accurate. I must have both metric and "standard" tools and use BOTH systems everyday! Even converting when necessary. (Brain exercise) Hey, how about the English and their positive ground approach on electricity!? "Lucas, the Crown Prince of Darkness"!! WOW! It sure is easy to make fun of other people, cultures and methods!
France required Yahoo to not sell Nazi memorabilia to French citizens. A US court overturned this. weldordave says---- freedom is freedom. If there was no market, there would be no sales.. Will you let your government tell you what to buy or not to buy?? If yes, please don't come to America; you will be very disappointed by the ability to make up your own mind!!!!!!!
The USA tries to export its gun culture/obsession to other countries.
weldordave says---- NO! We like it very much that you do not have guns!!!!
But the USA thinks that their constitution is the best in the world, and anyone who is different must be stupid. They also like to sell more guns.
weldordave says--- Actually, out of 16 guns that I own, only 2 are American. The 2 that I work with everyday. The rest are British(303 SMLE), German (Mauser, Stier-Mannlicher), Russian(AK), Swiss, Swede, and so forth. We do not want to sell you guns. But rather, YOU want to take advantage of our laws to sell US guns. And I thank you, the 8mm Mauser and the 303 Brit are without a doubt the best rifles ever made!
Participation in the mass murder of hundreds of thousands of civilians in terrorist attacks on Germany in the Second World War.weldordave says--- WHAT? Germany tried to invent the "human shield" around their war production facilities. Didn't work, did it? Or, how about this: "Sorry, London, those buzz bomb factories are too close to civilian housing. You'll have to live with the constant, indescriminate bombing of your country until the Dutch and French can stop it!"

Use of nuclear weapons against hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians in Japan in the second world war. This was not how the war ended actually. The Japanese had been trying very hard to surrender
weldordave says---- Ever hear of Okinawa???
the US refused to accept their surrender because they wanted to try out the nuclear weaponsweldordave says---- The US refused Japanese surrender because they wanted their Emporer to reign supreme. Would you accept such a condition from Germany regarding Hitler???? You'd best bone up on your history. Do you know what an invasion of the Japanese home islands would have cost?? In AMERICAN LIVES? Too bad you weren't there to lead the first assault!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
which were ready too late for the European theatre for which they were intended. Thus the USA prolonged the war with Japan so as to be able to test the effects of nuclear weapons on hundreds of thousands of civilians.
Weldordave says ---- The God-****ed bombs weren't ready till then you *******.
The USA fire-bombed Tokyo, killing hundreds of thousands of civilians, simply with the intention of terrorising the population. This is a serious war crime.weldordave says---- THIS IS WAR you ******. JUST LIKE LONDON, BERLIN, STALINGRAD, and OREGON! YES OREGON! Where is your outcry for the school teacher and children killed in OREGON by Japanese bomb balloons??????????????
Stop here, I'll finish ripping this malcantent diatribe apart later. Respond if you have the guts or THE FACTS.

[TV_Guy]

I agree with the tarrif issue. Despite most of the world making free trade agreements the US is stubborn as hell. NZ Lamb (finest in the world...Mmmmm Lamb) is taxed so heavily that it isn't viable for us to export there. Thank goodness for those hungry japanese people eh? Got to say youy folks don't know what your missing...Mmmmmm Roast lamb....*drool*.

[aclu14]

Well, weldordave, Asians have enough of their own rice that they don't need low-grade American rice.

------------------
I'll think of a better sig when I feel like it! Now stop bothering me! :D

Join the Oppositionist Party! (http://www.geocities.com/lucifer_is_hungry/opinionated_online)

[Serendipity]

Originally posted by aclu14:
Well, weldordave, Asians have enough of their own rice that they don't need low-grade American rice.

American corporations still find ways to cash in (http://www.actionaid.org/ourpriorities/foodrights/car/car.shtml) on it. http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/mad.gif

[weldordave]

Originally posted by aclu14:
Well, weldordave, Asians have enough of their own rice that they don't need low-grade American rice.


Is that why North Koreans are starving or are they starving because of the evil USA practice of seed sterilization(for the conspiracy minded). AND then why is AMERICAN rice a hot black market item in Asian countries that have American stores to serve servicemen? Or, have you been there to see how much more they want American rice??

HEX,

The USA is hated because idiot hillbillies post idiot comments on the www, say idiot things in public, and think there is no other country other than the USA - try a little humility..

[Lis]

My god people...why all the debate on who won the war, who shed the most casualties, who participated the most and their reasons for it? It was a very ****ty time...much about it sucked and the allies came out on top...lets be thankful for it and shut the hell up about who deserves the praise...IMO not one of us can take any credit considering not one of us was involved.

As for the guy (I'm assuming) who said that the only reason people hate the US is because they're not there...I'm glad you're fond of your lovely country over there but Geez...put a muzzle on that arrogance and take a look around the world. Experience some foreigners who are perfectly happy to not be in the US...it would be much easier then having me run off a long line of abuse and trying to avoid the censor. You goose.

------------------
Despite the cost of living, notice how it remains popular?

[weldordave]

Originally posted by Yukon:
HEX,

The USA is hated because idiot hillbillies post idiot comments on the www, say idiot things in public, and think there is no other country other than the USA - try a little humility..
Humility. Isn't that one of our civil rights that were "effectively suspended"?

[kontulib]

I don´t hate U.S.A. I only can´t always accept U.S. policy about some things...

[Sephirstein]

It's not very often you see an anti-American criticism from a more left-libertarian perspective make reference to Taiwan. My pro-Taiwan opinions are so extreme that I offend people. I don't give a **** though.

[Phreakmeister]

It was said in another post as well:

"America is a wonderful country with wonderful people and a lousy government"

[DV8]

Agreed. Yeah people hate Americans, but a lot of times it's like when people say they hate Westlife for example. They have no idea who the hell or what Westlife are like... But from what other people said they follow.
And it's also the attitude though isnt it? Even as teenagers, we can spot the differences. People in other countries are more reserved, not as open or confident. Whereas when an American enters, it's like a big blast in the face. The loudness and big egos (sterotype I know). Different habits and norms I guess...

[Sorry... I know, nothing to do with Politics]

[weldordave]

Originally posted by kontulib
I don´t hate U.S.A. I only can´t always accept U.S. policy about some things...
As we cannot accept Finnish policy about some things?

[weldordave]

Originally posted by Phreakmeister
It was said in another post as well:

"America is a wonderful country with wonderful people and a lousy government"
Holland is a wonderful country with wonderful people and a lousy government. Translation

[weldordave]

Originally posted by weldordave

Is that why North Koreans are starving or are they starving because of the evil USA practice of seed sterilization(for the conspiracy minded). AND then why is AMERICAN rice a hot black market item in Asian countries that have American stores to serve servicemen? Or, have you been there to see how much more they want American rice??

Hey, ACLU, I'm waiting for your answer. Something about our rice. How the don't want it. Care to check the commodities.

[kontulib]

Originally posted by weldordave

As we cannot accept Finnish policy about some things?

And thats ok, Dave...Americans and Finns haves different cultury and history, so there is no problem at we have different opinions...:)
Sometimes I´m wondering why Americans get hurted so easily if other people on the world is critisizing U.S policy. Critisizing and having different opinions is normal.

[Phreakmeister]

Originally posted by weldordave

Holland is a wonderful country with wonderful people and a lousy government. Translation

Totally agree with you.

[nacho cheese]

Anyone know what these countries have in common?

>China 1945-46
>Korea 1950-53
>China 1950-53
> Guatemala 1954
> Indonesia 1958
> Cuba 1959-60
> Guatemala 1960
> Congo 1964
> Peru 1965
> Laos 1964-73
> Vietnam 1961-73
> Cambodia 1969-70
> Guatemala 1967-69
> Greece 1967-74
> Cyprus 1974
> Grenada 1983
> Libya 1986
> El Salvador 1980
> Nicaragua 1980
> Panama 1989
> Iraq 1991-99
> Sudan 1998
> Afghanistan 1998
> Yugoslavia 1999


It should be so easy that I won't even bother to answer it.

[DV8]

Oh I know I know I know!!

They were all around 20 years ago?!?
No no... or.. they all have the letter A in apart from Congo, Peru, Greece and Cyprus?!? :p :D :rolleyes: :D :p

[weldordave]

Originally posted by nacho cheese
Anyone know what these countries have in common?

>China 1945-46
>Korea 1950-53
>China 1950-53
> Guatemala 1954
> Indonesia 1958
> Cuba 1959-60
> Guatemala 1960
> Congo 1964
> Peru 1965
> Laos 1964-73
> Vietnam 1961-73
> Cambodia 1969-70
> Guatemala 1967-69
> Greece 1967-74
> Cyprus 1974
> Grenada 1983
> Libya 1986
> El Salvador 1980
> Nicaragua 1980
> Panama 1989
> Iraq 1991-99
> Sudan 1998
> Afghanistan 1998
> Yugoslavia 1999


It should be so easy that I won't even bother to answer it.
You forgot at least 5 that I was in BOY. Try again smarta$$. Sure was nice to have all that FINLAND help during Pinatubo. Bet you were comfy-cozy suckling mamma's teat! Next time you make a list, try to get it right,BOY.

[Sjax]

Dave: Quit calling everyone boy, and try to read what Nacho writes. He wrote that these countries had something in common. That doesnt mean that other countries cant have had the same destiny, right?

You and I are both men, so we have that in common, but that doesnt mean that we are the only men in the world, right.

[nacho cheese]

You forgot at least 5 that I was in BOY
Since the WW2 the USA has attacked so many countries that it's impossible for one person to remember. (i would normally put a smiley in here, but the US government sponsored terrorism isn't a reason to smile)

Think about it: 24 attacked countries sice WW2 and that's not even all! And then you wonder why there are so many people hating "the land of the free"?

[Dizbuster]

Originally posted by nacho cheese

Since the WW2 the USA has attacked so many countries that it's impossible for one person to remember. (i would normally put a smiley in here, but the US government sponsored terrorism isn't a reason to smile)

Think about it: 24 attacked countries sice WW2 and that's not even all! And then you wonder why there are so many people hating "the land of the free"?

Hmm, so if the US is so hellbent on world domination and such an "imperialist" monster, why aren't at least some of those countries now part of the good ole US of A, enjoying the Big Macs and rampant consumerism that is the "right" of all Americans?

Hmmm?

*taps foot while waiting for answer*

Oh one more question, why did the US allow the Phillipines to become a sovereign nation, when many of the people there would have been just as happy being a part of the good ole US of A?

Guess they just don't make tyrannical evil empires the way they used to.:rolleyes:
now the former USSR, there was a country that knew how to foment and sponsor revolutions and regime changes! And they had that "puppet government" thing down pat, didn't they?

:p :wink :eek: :wink :p

[Sjax]

Actually the old Soviet didnt do anything USA doesnt do today. They didnt make the countries they attacked a part of the Soviet either, they only controlled their politics exactly like the US do today.

[Serendipity]

Diz, I feel the US has imperialistic tendencies, and I'm not a US-hater. But the empire the US wants is economic, not political - though the US gov't is happy to work to make the economic conditions right. Why bother actually running a country when you can just make a good profit out of it? Money and property is what counts - this attitude is reflected in US domestic law, where in many places you have the right to kill in order to protect your property.

"All political power comes from the barrel of a gun" - Chairman Mao. Mao was probably the biggest monster ever to "lead" a nation, but he was right on this count.

[Dizbuster]

Originally posted by Sjax
Actually the old Soviet didnt do anything USA doesnt do today. They didnt make the countries they attacked a part of the Soviet either, they only controlled their politics exactly like the US do today.

Really!

Guess you need to tell that to the East Europeans, Africans, and Asians who were "reeducated" when the Soviet advisors "helped" their politicians set up the "perfect Socialist Democracy" that the USSR advanced.
I am sure that US political officers in the FDR and England and other NATO members did the same exact thing!

[Dizbuster]

Diz, I feel the US has imperialistic tendencies, and I'm not a US-hater. But the empire the US wants is economic, not political - though the US gov't is happy to work to make the economic conditions right. Why bother actually running a country when you can just make a good profit out of it? Money and property is what counts - this attitude is reflected in US domestic law, where in many places you have the right to kill in order to protect your property.

So, what do you suggest a country do, just help the 3rd world countries develop with no regard to their own interests? Help them develop and use their resources without regard to our own needs?

Sorry, until you can change the nature of humankind, and we can stop being the greedy, self-centered, cantankerous SOBs that we are, there is always going to be a need to take economic concerns into account when nations and people deal with one another.

At least in this modern age, when we "invade" a country, it is not with bullets and bombs, causing destruction, but with money and knowledge, and in the exchange of goods and services, the standard of living and development generally rises for both the US and the country that we are dealing with. Sure you can point out inequities in the system and scream about it being "unfair"
but, and I hate to break it to you, but
LIFE is Unfair.
Generally, if you have a country wher the cost of living is much lower than yours, like a bag of beans that would cost you amount X, but there it costs amount Y, then you are NOT going to pay the shopkeeper amount X when you buy the beans from him in that country, now are you?

The inequities in pay and conditions are generally locally controlled, and you can not fault someone for paying on the scale of local conditions.
Sorry, but Economics will trump social conscience pretty much all the time when it comes to corporate entities.

Heck, in some of these countries, the locals are more greedy and cutthroat than even the most obnoxious executive you dare to name.
Like I said, Human nature.
(hint, 1 of the reasons why the great "socialist/marxist experiment" of 1917 to 1990 failed so miserably.)
:p :eek: :p

[Sjax]

Originally posted by Dizbuster


Really!

Guess you need to tell that to the East Europeans, Africans, and Asians who were "reeducated" when the Soviet advisors "helped" their politicians set up the "perfect Socialist Democracy" that the USSR advanced.
I am sure that US political officers in the FDR and England and other NATO members did the same exact thing!

I am sorry Diz, but I really cant see the difference between the Soviet Union teaching other countries to be good communists, and the US teaching them to be good capitalists.
OK, one could argue that capitalism is better than communism, which I also believe to be true, but there is no difference in their methods, and thats what is the issue here.
You claimed that the US have made any countries a part of the US, and I just said that neither have the Soviet Union.

One of the best exambles is probably Germany which, as you probably know, were divided in four sectors after the second world war. An american, a soviet, an english and a french. Each country tried to "educate" their part in the way that they wanted.

Dont take this as a defence of the Soviet Union or the German Democratic Republic. I would never defend them. I see some of the things they did to the people every day. I am just saying that they used exactly the same methods as US uses today which are: Get other countries to do what we want them to do. If we cant convince them with discussion, we can convince them with weapon.

[Sjax]

Originally posted by Dizbuster


So, what do you suggest a country do, just help the 3rd world countries develop with no regard to their own interests? Help them develop and use their resources without regard to our own needs?


You need to understand that helping 3rd world countries is in your own interest. The most brilliant piece of foreign politics USA ever made were the Marschall aid. It has paid itself 100 times. It is always a good thing to have rich "friends" with whome you can trade, make alliances with etc.
It is also the only way that you can fight terrorism. The US government seem to believe that terrorists are a breed or something. If you kill them all we will get rid of terrorism. Nothing could be more wrong. Kill Osama, and there will come some new guy, maybe even worse. Kill Saddam and there will come some new guy.
The only way to fight terrorism is to take away the reason for terrorist attacks.
You can fight terrorists with weapon, but you cant fight terrorism with weapon.

btw Im not a USA hater either. I am a little sceptic toward your government and general politics, but I dont hate the country.

[Dizbuster]

SJAX;

That is the gist of what I am saying, the US does help other countries where some type of economic and/or political gain can happen. What some people seem to be arguing is that, we should help ALL countries, whether we gain anything from that aid or not, and that we should not look to profit at all, either politically or fiscally, from giving aid.

As far as the differences between the US and the USSR, which system allowed, for the most part, (we are talking in general here, so go by the overall statistics, rather than individual cases, okay?) the most freedom and liberty to the (peoples of the nation that they aided.

Countries, which accepted or were forced into the USSR sphere of influence, developed "closed" and controlled societies, where basic human rights may have been given lots of lip service, but were crushed as counter revolutionary in practice. In general, poor economic and cultural development, as well as poor standards of living marked these states. Unless you were "born" or related to someone in the high levels of the government, advancement by individuals through personal skill and initiative was limited and often repressed, since ALL should be equal. (Some like politburo and security agents, more "equal" than others.)

Countries that were "taken in" by the Western Democracies( not just US but we were one of the main players) developed, sometimes slowly and after some very harsh measures by the local governments, into "open" amd more democratic societies, which, though not always perfectly, gave individuals more of the basic human rights than allowed under the Soviet system. In general, these states developed better standards of living, more economic and cultural growth, and allowed more of their citizens to "advance" themselves through personal skill and initiative.

Unfortunately, in many areas of the world, the "western ideals" of democracy and personal liberty or freedom, do conflict with local cultural and social norms, so in those countires, harsh dictatorships, both left and right, are more likely to develop, rather than the type of government a Western Democracy would prefer. The "idea" of personal freedoms, rather than fealty to the family, tribe, clan, race, or what have you, conflicts harshly and negatively to a less controlled and more open cultural perspective. These type of interactions tend to cause the worse strife, and worse abuses, than ones based purely on economic concerns.

It is not that these societies can't develop over time to the ideals of universal human rights and freedom, it is that they need to "grow" and mature into a society that respects those rights.

[Phreakmeister]

You can find a list of all things the US are criticized for, including an analysis of the justified and unjustified criticisms, at http://www.vexen.co.uk/USA/hateamerica.html

[Sjax]

Diz: Try to reread my posts. It seems to me that we actually agree, but that we are discussing two different things here.

I have already said that in my humble opinion the western ideologies are much better than the ones of the Soviet Union. I have also stated that it has worked better in the countries that USA influated than in the ones Soviet influated (generally, anyway).

The only thing I was saying, which you keep misinterpreting, is that there was no difference in the way the USA and the Soviet union forced other countries to do what they wanted. And I will say this one more time. I believe that what US forced countries to do was better than what Soviet forced them to do.

[Dizbuster]

I think it is more a difference in what we may consider as "forcing" a country to do one thing or another. I do not consider the US methods, which would amount to extortion, the same as the Soviet:
(Do things this way, and after the rebels are put down and a ceasefire is signed, then you can hold an election. If not, then we will withold aid.)
Compared to the outright coercion and occupation that the Soviets generally used;
( Comrade, we have already held the elections, and congratulations, you have won, we will move our "advisors" and political officers in to help you run your new workers paradise. Please do not be alarmed by the men with guns, they are there for your protection, and to "aid" you in setting the proper policies)

Of course, I used creative license a bit, but you should get what I mean.

Of course, we are talking in general, there were cases where the US did in effect, use the latter method to try and supress or control communist insurrgents, where the soviets used a more measured approach, rather than just installing a puppet regime.
That is why I say getting into specifics would just bog us down and waste both of our times looking them up to refute each other.

Part of my argument before was to show that, again, in general, when the US did use more severe methods, they were driven by cultural or social conditions, rather than any wish for us to rule by proxy.

[Sjax]

Diz. I think that your version of it is very creative (not to mention quite amusing), but its not entirely correct is it. You seem to forget how many countries USA has attacked militarily. They are the most aggresive country in the world since WW2.

[Dizbuster]

As I said, I was talking in general, and in many of the cases where the US did intervene militarily was in reaction to insurrgencies which were usually funded and controlled by the USSR.

Remember who funded groups like Baider Mienhoff, Red Brigades, and many of the various Palestinian factions. The Soviets were supporting and funding terrorist and independence movements around the globe all through the post-war years. America's foreign policy was set up to counter that support, and to Try and allow people to choose without too much coercion, the form of government they wished to live under.

At least, that was the theory, practice, as in all things, left a lot to be desired.:lol :wink :lol

[Serendipity]

Aye, it did, once in a while, look as though America was doing what it wanted and not what the people of whatever poor nation involved wanted. Contras vs Sandinistas, for example...