Israel vs. Palestine

[Phreakmeister]

What do you think of the current situation in the Middle East? Who is responsible for the current situation? Arafat, Sharon, the US, the EU, others? Do you think there's still a way out of all this? If so, what's the way, you think?

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Do you believe in death after life?

[The Horseman]

I'm tempted to say 'let them all fry in their own juices' (frankly, if they want to kill each other, let 'em). But honestly - well Sharon seems to be the most responsible. From what I can tell, Arafat had little authority over the extremely radical groups (Islamic Jihad etc) to begin with, and his continued house-arrest seems to be undermining his authority by the hour.

[Sjax]

I think the most important difference between Israel and Palestine is that Israel is a democratic nation, and Palestine is not. Therefore the violence coming from Israel is coming from a state and is official. The violence coming from Palestine is coming from independent terroristorganisations, and you cannot blame all the palestinians for that, just like you cant blame the afghani people for the actions of the Taliban.
The Israelis chose Sharon, and that makes them responsible for his actions. The palestinians havent chosen the terroristsorganisations. They may support them, which is wrong, but they didnt elect them. They do not have the power to stop them.

On the other hand, the israelis must do something to stop the terror, but I dont think violence is the way. It hasnt proved to be the way so far.

The palestinians cant stop the violence, because it isnt organized. It isnt Arafat who orders the attacks (at least I dont believe it is). The Israelis can stop their violence. Sharon can just say the word, and it will stop.

[weldordave]

Wow, Phreak. Reread history about the Palestinians/Palestine through the 30's and 40's. At least the Turks learned from their WW1 mistake. What really kills me is that CNN was saying something about how the "world" wants the US to get involved. How about Dutch intervention, Danish intervention, English, German, Spanish, Portugese, French, etc. I would love to sit back and play "armchair quarterback" on your actions as world police force. Much as you do to the US now. I say let them kill each other till they get sick of killing. I will not forget what the Isrealis did to the USS Liberty! So how 'bout it, you ready to ante up with the Aussies and Yanks?

[cleoeo]

What a mess. This is what Religion will get you. The Palestinians and the Israelis feel morally bound to butcher each other in the name of God. It's almost impossible to stop the fighting in such a situation - just look at your history books.

[Phreakmeister]

I personally think Sharon, altho IMO he is an @$$hole, has the right, even the obligation towards the Israeli people to stop terrorism. (BTW, have y'all noticed how fashionable the word "terrorist" has become in international politics? After WW2, people called their political opponents "fascists". Now they call the political opponents "terrorists")

It's true that Arafat can't be held responsible for the actions of Hamas, Jihad and Hizbollah. Israel has destroyed every police station, so Palestinian police work is pretty hampered. However, Al Aqsa and Al Fatah are directly under Arafat's authority. They can't do anything without his explicit permission.

About your question Dave: Would I be ready to ante up with the Aussies and Yanks.
I personally not. I've been called to the army two years ago, but I refuse to be part of the army. I have a personal disgust of killing other people. But I have no problem with Dutch intervention in Israel, or the Dutch army being involved in peacekeeping in the Middle-East. And yes, I do think both the Dutch government and the government of the European Union should do more. It's just that I don't know if the Dutch army has the capacity of joining in an international peace keeping force in Israel and Palestine, knowing that the Dutch army is already involved in missions in Bosnia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Afghanistan, Cyprus, Lebanon, Cambodia, Eritrea/Ethiopia, Iraq, Mozambique, Angola, Haiti, Moldova, and the list goes on for quite a while. But in theory, yes, if it would be just a little possible, the Dutch would have to intervene as well, IMO.

Why are people looking at the US to do something about the current situation in Israel? The US are the greatest supporters of the state of Israel. Therefore, the US would have/has the most influence on the policy of the Israeli government. More than any other country in the world. So to me it makes sense that people are looking at the US.

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Do you believe in death after life?

[aclu14]

Thought-provoking...
Will it ever end?

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Join the Oppositionist Party! (http://www.geocities.com/lucifer_is_hungry/opinionated_online)

[ungua]

the israelis actually do a lot of things that are not acceptable - such like driving into refugee camps and shooting around. what does ths remind you of? also the palestinian do a lot of »bad things«. but arafat could not possibly gain control while everybody is shooting the other everybody.
the worst problem might be that the chihldren are brought up in and according to that war - i hope it doesn't make it an endless war.
there has to be a peace-keeping force anyway - imagine the people suffering from the war; or, if it doesn't work to you: the war can spread out from that region. i don't like these ideas...
btw, israelian newspapers said a lot of four-letter-words (as a people's voice) regarding scharon and his legitimation is close to zero now...

regards,
ungua

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[ungua]

btw, has anyone reliable information about the israelian military force?

[Phreakmeister]

As I said, Ungua, demanding Arafat to be able to control Hamas, Jihad and Hizbollah is impossible. But what about Al Fatah and Al Aqsa, armed branches of the PLO?

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Do you believe in death after life?

A look at the opposing forces from Newsweek:


Israelis

6,040,000 - Residents
177,500 - Active Forces
Median Age - 28
Average Monthly Wage - $1500


Palestinians

3,191,000 - Residents in Gaza and West Bank regions
40,000 - Paramilitary
Median Age - 17
Average Monthly Wage - $360


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[aclu14]

crash

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Stop monkeying around George Dubya! (http://pics.steakandcheese.com/ookook.jpg)

Join the Oppositionist Party! (http://www.geocities.com/lucifer_is_hungry/opinionated_online)

[weldordave]

I read Jeff's post, then read aclu14's post. In one word aclu states more than ANY politician, statesman, newsman can say in a 2 hour speech. Simple yet real. **** kid, you gonna run for office some day?

[ungua]

very well done... but politicians are really not supposed to be honest.
example (one more time): pre-reunification talks in germany, kohl talking about »fast and perfect unification«, lafontaine of another political party talks about »upcoming difficulties but we'll try managing it«. everybody knows who was honoured for his speak...

regards,
ungua


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http://masses.ungua.de" TARGET=_blank>http://eidsbugarden.ungua.de
http://masses.ungua.de</A>

[aclu14]

*flattered*
Well, Dave, maybe I should. Bring some reality and honesty to where it should be. Have you been to my website(does the link even work)? The main goal is logic, a characteristic desperately needed in politics.

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Stop monkeying around George Dubya! (http://pics.steakandcheese.com/ookook.jpg)

Join the Oppositionist Party! (http://www.geocities.com/lucifer_is_hungry/opinionated_online)

[aclu14]

*thinks*
Either I'll be a politician and make myself famous,or I'll be one hell of a speechwriter and make some talking head famous.

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Stop monkeying around George Dubya! (http://pics.steakandcheese.com/ookook.jpg)

Join the Oppositionist Party! (http://www.geocities.com/lucifer_is_hungry/opinionated_online)

[CBranski]

For a while, I thought I was the only one who believes that we should let the Palestinians and Israelis play things about between themselves-every major power since the Roman Empire has tried to bring peace to that region with no success. They've had thousands of years to figure out a way to co-exist peacefully and have chosen not to do so. Some more observations:

Yasser Arafat may not be a terrorist, but he is certainly too wek or inept to keep the most violent members of his nation under control. Isreali leaders seem not to realise that the Palestinians do have some legitimate problems with the way they are treated; not innocent enough to kill innocent civilians of course. One former leader of Isreal, Benjamin Netanyahou (sp?) said something on Fox News' "The O'Reilly Factor" that floored me-he stated that Europeans support the Palestinians more because the supported the Holocaust, conveneintly forgetting the tens of thousands of British, French, Dutch, sympathisers, etc. that died at the hands of the Nazis trying to end Hitler's reign.

In looking at the atrocity scorecard, I can't find a good guy here: both sides have blood on thier hands. I can't really have sympathy for either side.

In sum, both sides have to come to a consensus that they are willing to live together, and both are going to have to give and take. Since they have never done so in recorded history, I don't hold out any hope of that happening.

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Tony Soprano for Sherriff!

[Sjax]

Now the war seems to have ound its way to Denmark. The danish national football team is playing Israel in a friendly game to night, and the police expect riots between danish jews and palestinians living in Denmark.
There has already been bomb threads adn protest demonstration against the match, which the palestinians and the far left want cancelled.

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It is amazing what little harm doctors do when one considers all the opportunity they have.
(Mark Twain)

The Israelis are terrorists supported by the USA , and the PLO are terroroists supported by Arab oil money obtained by selling oil to Americans.

Nuke them both..send the Jew to Abraham and the PLO to Mohammed.

(CNN) -- Negotiators trying to end the three-week standoff between Israeli forces and the 200 or so Palestinians holed up inside the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem agreed to release eight youths from the church, who went home on Friday. Negotiations, however, on the situation were put on hold. Meanwhile, Israeli forces entered four more West Bank communities.

CNN Correspondent John Vause is in Bethlehem following the story, and spoke to CNN on Friday morning.

VAUSE: Well, no talks were scheduled here in Bethlehem to try to end this standoff here at the Church of the Nativity. A fourth round of discussions ended last night but both the Israelis and the Palestinians have agreed to a fifth round of negotiations. Those are yet to be scheduled.

What we're being told is that the Palestinians now want to meet with Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat and CNN has been told by a source close to these negotiations that the Israelis have actually given permission to release one delegate to go to Ramallah to see Yasser Arafat in his compound, where he's been since last month, since the incursions began.

Now, as we talked about those teen-agers, those young Palestinians who walked from the church yesterday, well, as you said, eight of those are now at home with their families. But one is being held. A 19-year-old man is being questioned by the IDF (Israel Defense Forces). They believe that he may have some links to the Palestinian gunmen who remain inside the Church of the Nativity. A spokesman for the IDF told CNN that he will be questioned over the next few days and then he'll either be charged or he, too, will be released.

Now, one of those other teen-agers who came out of the church confirmed all those reports that we have been hearing about the conditions inside. This teen-ager said that basically there is no food. They've been surviving on lemon peels and grass. He also said that everybody inside that church is, in fact, free to go, which certainly counters what the Israelis have been saying, that everybody inside that church is being held hostage.

Now, also this teen-ager said that those Palestinian gunmen inside are very, very determined not to give up and, in fact, he said they will reject any proposal which involves any Palestinians being deported or sent into exile to a third country.

Now, overnight the Israeli army was, in fact, again on the move, this time into the West Bank town of Qalqilya as well as three other nearby villages. Witnesses counted about 15 tanks and APCs entering that town in a predawn raid. Thirteen Palestinians, at least 13, were arrested as part of those predawn sweeps.

Now, also, there's been some movement on the diplomatic front, regarding that U.N. fact-finding team to the Jenin refugee camp. The Israelis have been asking for a number of compromises in that fact-finding team. They wanted two extra military advisers to go along on that fact-finding mission. They got that.

Now those military advisers will look specifically at terrorism and also if, in fact, Jenin was, in fact, a base for terrorists. The Israelis say that Jenin is the suicide bomb-making capital of the world. The Israelis also want that fact-finding mission to be limited specifically to Jenin and they also say that they want immunity for any Israeli who testifies to that fact-finding team.

Also, the Israelis want a simple statement of fact at the end of this. They don't want any conclusions to be presented in any final report.

Now, that U.N. team will leave and will arrive in the region as scheduled. It should arrive here over the weekend.



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