America's Morality...

[Phreakmeister]

America's Morality Has Been Distorted by September 11
by Robert Fisk

In Afghan fields, the poppies blow. Yes, even as the Americans are moving deeper into the Afghan trap, the warlords and gangsters running much of the western-supported Afghan government are ensuring a bumper new crop of heroin for the world's markets.
The UN have warned of this, of course, but nothing is being done. The "war against terror" comes first. The broken roads and highways of Afghanistan are now ribbons of anarchy and brigandage and murder across the country. The pathetic little force of peace-keepers in Kabul cannot control all of the capital, let alone the rest of the country. The Interim President, Hamid Karzai, can scarcely control the street outside his office. But the "war against terror" comes first.

Locked into their "war against terror" – and now discovering that their enemies want to fight them – the Americans remain equally indolent when confronted by the infinitely more dangerous conflict 2,000 miles to the west of Kabul, in the streets of Jerusalem, Ramallah, Tel Aviv, Nablus, Jenin and Gaza. When the Israeli army goes on a shooting spree in the refugee camps and kills 16 Palestinians, among them two children, the US calls for "restraint". When a Palestinian suicide bomber murders a crowd of Israelis in Jerusalem, including two babies and a 10-year old, the US boldly blames Yasser Arafat for not "stopping terrorism" by locking up the bad guys. And Ariel Sharon? Why, he's busy destroying the police stations and prisons to make sure Mr Arafat can't do what he's been ordered to do.

And when Mr Sharon actually announces that Israel must "inflict greater losses" – in other words, kill more Palestinians – Washington is silent. Maybe it's not indolence. Maybe the Bush administration actually believes that the man held "personally responsible" by an Israeli commission of inquiry for the murder of 1,700 Palestinian civilians in Beirut in 1982 really is fighting America's "war on terror". Maybe America's moral compass has become so skewed by the crimes against humanity on 11 September that President Bush simply no longer cares what Mr Sharon does.

It's as if all the lessons of history – in Afghanistan as well as the Middle East – have been tossed into a bin. Take ex-President Clinton. He arrives in Israel and what does he do? He blames Mr Arafat. And what does his preposterous wife say when she does the same thing? "Yasser Arafat bears the responsibility for the violence that has occurred; it rests on his shoulders ..." She says that her role as a US Senator is "to support the Israeli people". Really? What's wrong with supporting innocent Palestinians as well? Wrong religion? Back-to-front writing? Wrong eye color?

So a war against colonial occupation has been transformed into an offshoot of the "war on terror", the language of this war ever more infantile. We now have to learn by rote the following words: tit-for-tat, cycle-of-violence, axis of evil, bunker-buster, daisy-cutter ... Is there no end to this childishness? No, there is not. For the latest little killer is the word "transfer" or "resettlement". As in "the simple answer... would be to create a vast separation from Israel, resettling the Palestinians in Jordan, where 80 per cent of the population is Palestinian." This comes from an article published in USA Today. In Israel itself, an opinion poll asks Israelis how many of them would support "transfer" – of Arabs out of their homes, of course, not Jewish settlers off Arab land – as a solution to the war.

This is incredible. "Transfer" is ethnic cleansing and ethnic cleansing is a war crime. If American newspapers are prepared to print such an option and if Israelis are asked to give their opinion on it, what is Mr Milosevic doing in The Hague? The moral collapse is already underway. Take the watering down of the US government's latest report on human rights. In 2000, it said that Egypt's hopelessly unfair military courts "do not ensure civilian defendants due process before an independent tribunal". In the 2001 report, however, that sentence has been censored out. It has to be, of course, because Mr Bush is now setting up his own military courts to try his prisoners at Guantanamo Bay without due process.

And while the Americans are distorting the nature of the war between Israel and the Palestinians, they are lying about Afghanistan. General Tommy Franks, the head of the US Central Command, refers in the following words to the mistaken killing of 16 innocent Afghans at Hazar Qadam: "I will not characterize it as a failure of any type." Sorry? Either General Franks – who on Tuesday managed to refer to his newly killed soldiers as dying "in Vietnam" – didn't read the facts or he is a very disreputable man.

His boss, Donald Rumsfeld, refuses to use the word "mistake" or even "investigation" after thousands of innocent Afghans died under US bombs because the word "sometimes has the implication of more formality or a disciplinary action". When Washington's top military men are so dishonest, is it any surprise that Israeli tanks can open fire on refugee camps without any serious response from the US or blast cars carrying children because they want to kill their father?

It is surely time that Europe became involved. It is surely time that the EU held a summit about these terrible conflicts and involved itself directly. We should be expanding the peace force in Kabul to remove the weapons of Afghanistan and let America move into the swamp of semi- occupation and guerrilla warfare if that is what it wishes. We should be asking Israel to repay the €17.29m (£10.5m) of European taxpayers' money that has been destroyed by the Israeli army in its vandalization of EU-funded Palestinian infrastructure.

Since the Americans won't talk to Yasser Arafat, we should take over from them. If Washington is too slovenly to halt this terrible war between Arab and Israeli, we must try to do so. We're asked to fund America's bankrupt policies with our euros. So now it's time to demand that we have a say in them. Instead of that, Downing Street, which over Christmas castigated those journalists who predicted chaos and blood in Afghanistan – myself included, I'm glad to say – feeds Mr Bush's fantasies by supporting yet another war with Iraq.

I'm beginning to suspect that 11 September is turning into a curse far greater than the original bloodbath of that day, that America's absorption with that terrible event is in danger of distorting our morality. Is the anarchy of Afghanistan and the continuing slaughter in the Middle East really to be the memorial for the thousands who died on 11 September?



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Do you believe in death after life?

[ungua]

great text... but i think america's morality was always driven by interests. either obviously economically or behind a political mascerade...
and this »war on terror«-thing is one big propaganda action. i'll think i don't have to explain it - that's been done a lot of times... ;-)
has anyone ever read reinhard lettau's »täglicher faschismus / daily fascism«? it's old (early 70's) and has some communistic commentaries, but it's still a great collection of newspaper articles... ;-)
(i can explain it if anyone wants... *g*)

regards,
ungua

[weldordave]

Can you think and write for yourself or is this rehashing of old verbage going to continue?

[Phreakmeister]

If it is appropriate to a certain discussion I will keep on copying texts written by others.

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Do you believe in death after life?

[This message has been edited by Phreakmeister (edited April 06, 2002).]

[aclu14]

Actually, most of the stuff you post is quite amusing.
(John Ashcroft believes that calico kitties are the sign of the devil? What is wrong with him? *ROTFLMAO*)

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Stop monkeying around George Dubya! (http://pics.steakandcheese.com/ookook.jpg)

Join the Oppositionist Party! (http://www.geocities.com/lucifer_is_hungry/opinionated_online)

[ungua]

i think it's a quite good text and what is the problem in posting it here? it can be used as a discussion starter or you just read it - or ignore it. it's up to you what you do with it...

regards,
ungua

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[aclu14]

And we don't know where to access this stuff either , except for DL.

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Stop monkeying around George Dubya! (http://pics.steakandcheese.com/ookook.jpg)

Join the Oppositionist Party! (http://www.geocities.com/lucifer_is_hungry/opinionated_online)

[weldordave]

Well, aclu go anywhere on the web or try reading your local paper, Time, Newsweek, Wall Street, The Underground, whatever. Phreak's post about America's morality mentions the poppy fields in the first sentence. Yet there are bodies being flown back to Holland because our Dutch allies have lost some of their best trained explosives experts in Afganistan. It is not an AMERICAN operation. Virtually all our NATO allies are there. In fact, the Brit Marines have the absolute horrid task of patrolling the city streets. May their Gods watch over them. This post states that "it is time for the EU to act......" Sorry, too late. You are daydreamers. You ARE there. You cannot finance or support this without our help and we cannot do this without your support. Like it or not EU, you are tied to us and we are tied to you. Inflaming public opinion by telling only half the story will not do anybody any good. Tony Blair has really stuck his neck out with his remarks. That carries alot of weight with me. The Brits have nothing to gain but reprisals from wacked-out fundementalists, but see a future free of indiscriminate killing of peaceful noncombatents. I find it quite humorous how the post states a monetary value of EU money that Isreal "owes". OK, EU, how about the money you cost the US for your existance? Would you all rather be doing the goosestep and heiling Hitler now? You have NO debt with me or any American. I will pay and bleed for anybody's freedom. All you have to do is ask. You owe me nothing for it! And I don't want to argue the "Lend/Lease Act" here. The inciteful quips such as Phreak posted are just opinions that like SCUD missiles, have no direction but yet cause concern because they are there. Read them, but don't forget to make up your own mind. Out of 4 posts to this topic none related to the subject but to my comment on Phreak's transcribing opinion. Have ya'll even read the whole thing?

[Phreakmeister]

First of all I wanna say that no Dutch soldiers have (as yet) been killed in Afghanistan. I think it was 3 Danes and 2 Italians who got killed, or something of the likes.
Secondly, yes, it's an American operation. Just like Vietnam. Just like Korea. Just like Panama. Just like a hell of a lot of military operations, the American government doesn't give a horse's @$$ about the rest of the world. Just as long as their interests are met. Who cares about the tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese getting napalmed? Who cares about the millions of innocent Japanese getting nuked? Who cares about the thousands of Palestinians getting slaughtered by Israel each year? Who cares that tens of thousands of innocent Chileans, Argentineans and others were thrown out of planes into the Pacific and Atlantic? Who cares about the overthrow of democratically elected governments throughout the world? Who cares that those government are replaced with the most vicious dictatorships? Who cares? As long as the US benefits from it.

So you, Dave, think that the US are acting on behalf of the peoples of Europe? THINK AGAIN!!!! It's time for you to wake up, it's time for the US to wake up. According to some, the US is in a pre-fascist period, and they might be right. Hail to the country of the muppet president. Hail to "God's own country". Freedom of speech, unless you dislike the government. Freedom of colour, unless you're black. Freedom of religion, unless you're not Christian.

Not blindly applauding to the US does NOT mean heiling Hitler!!! Get your facts straight before you say them. America is NOT the greatest democracy in the world. Not in numbers and not in "amount of democracy". America is NOT "the best country in the world". Yes, it's the most powerful country in the world, there's no denying to it, but power does not mean quality. There is no link whatsoever between economic, military and political strength on one hand, and righteousness, truth and justice on the other hand.

It is time for all of America to wake up, and look at itself. America oughta get the guts to also see its own failures, instead of nuking others' failures off the face of the earth.
Coz while we're at it: September 11th has a reason. The vicious and hypocritical attitude of the US government in the world has aroused so much hatred throughout the world, that a few b@$t@rd$ gave themselves the right to do what they did. They had no right to commit what they did, certainly not, but they were completely right in hating the US government.

And the "inciteful quips" I post here are based on mere facts. This is the way the US government operates in the world. Not the way CNN, NBC, ABC, CBS and all the others tell you. Not the way Bush, Powell, Cheney, Rumsfeld and others tell you. THIS is what the US government is doing.

What the US is lacking, is a sense of self-criticism, is the guts to be able to also look at failures of the US government itself.

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Do you believe in death after life?

[ungua]

i must admit that phreakmaster's text is much more convincing than yours, dave. also you're writing in a quite aggressive way what does not really support your aim. imho phreakmaster is right due to all the facts that can be seen and even felt everywhere - if you read the text's posted by him you supposedly get this knowledge, too.
btw, it weren't two italians but two germans.

regards,
ungua

[weldordave]

You might want to check, but I'm pretty sure it was Dutch EOD who bought it. At any rate, my regards to their country and families. I apologize if I, in the end, misguessed their countries. If it's an American operation why, in your first sentance do you point out the Danes and Italians who were killed? And what of the Aussies, Brits, and Germans that are there? I think that it is because it is in the best interest of the world for stability of that region. He11, even Iraq does not protest NATO's cleaning up. THEY can not afford to. No Phreak, to say it is an American operation is a slap in the face to all other countries servicemembers there. I value their service and support and give them credit and acknowledgment for being there. Hide your head in the sand if you want to.
Next:before you talk about the "nuked Japanese", I'll have you know that my father-in-law lived through the Jap occupation of Guam. He later attained the highest enlisted rank in the US Navy and was shot to pieces on a RPB in Vietnam. Ask him if it was necessary to defeat the Japanese at all costs. Remember our trial run at Okinawa? Oh, that's right, it wasn't Dutch people getting slaughtered. Remember the Rape of Nanking? Oh, that's right, it wasn't Dutch people. Remember Pearl Harbor? Oh, that's right, it wasn't Dutch people. Remember what the Japs did to Korea, and why there isn't any trees in Korea now? Oh, that's right, it wasn't Dutch. Remember the Jap invasion of American soil? The Aluetians in case you don't know. Oh, that's right, it wasn't Dutch. Remember the Jap balloon bombs that killed innocent people in Oregon? Oh, that's right, it wasn't Holland. Remember the treatment of POW's by Japs to Americans and English? Oh, that's right, Dutch not there. Bridge over the River Kwai? Oh, not Dutch. Remember the threat of Jap invasion of Australia? Oh, Dutch not there. The Bataan Death March? Oh, that's right, Dutch not there. The Japanese nuclear developments and THEIR plans? Oh,that's right, long way to Holland. Before you condemn our actions in that war, young man, I suggest YOU gather your facts. And Vietnam was a "leftover" from WWII. The French blah, blah, blah. To zero in on just the Vietnamese casualities is again a slap in the face to the American, Aussie, and French who TRIED to do what their countries told them was "the right thing to do". How about we focus on New Amsterdam and how the DUTCH screwed the natives out of what is now Manhatten for $24! And you have a problem with the Jews?!
Korea was a NATO event. Go back and check your history books. The vote with only the CCCP against it? Do you think Korea would be better off now if the North were to reign? The people are starving under a defunct communist regime. I have been there, have you? It is still a NATO action as there has been no truce, but only a cease fire. How about the Dutch go and be moderators for awhile? Because it would bankrupt your country in a year!
Where do you get your facts about anybody being thrown out of a plane? Have you seen this happen? Oh, that's right, it's not in Holland, so conjecture stories.
And about Panama. I WAS THERE, KID! You want to know about it, ask. I was in with the first group, bodyguarded for one task. There were Brits , Aussies, and Canadians with me! There is more to life than the computer screen in Holland.
AMERICA'S MORALITY- Well, take another look. We're all in this together.
ungua: Get ALL the facts, then make up your own mind!

[Phreakmeister]

About the people being thrown out of planes: It happened in Chile and Argentina. Just to name two countries. Under Pinochet and Videla. How I know this? The father-in-law of our crown prince was co-responsible for all this.

I have never ever chosen the side of the Japanese in WW2. What I said, is that the brutality of the Japanese ARMY towards non-Japanese does not justify the American brutality towards the Japanese people. Those people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were just as innocent as your father-in-law on Guam.
Yes, Japan had to be defeated, I won't deny that, but with an atom bomb on innocent civilians??? Japan already was at the end of its power, with regular air bombardments it would have taken maybe 1 or 2 months longer.

About Vietnam: Yes, those soldiers did what their government said what was right. But my rant is not against the soldiers, it's against the governments involved, the governments napalming the Vietnamese. How can you justify that?

Yes, why are other countries involved in Afghanistan? Not because the people want them to go. Because of our sorry-@$$ governments, trying to lick Dubya's butt.

I'm absolutely not trying to justify the Dutch treatment of Native Americans. Although I don't like the idea of hanging a price tag on a certain area, I can't justify the $24 buyout of Manhattan. But that was $24 in dollars of those days. (Guilders of those days being converted to modern dollars)In modern dollars, after inflation correction and stuff like that, it would be about $60,000. Still not a lot, but a lot more than $24


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Do you believe in death after life?

[Lis]

All facts aside my only input (purely through lack of knowledge, experience or understanding) is that you decide your own involvement. Reap the benefits and suffer the consequences. Theres a ****load of blame flying around this room and its not always the acceptance of whos to blame as to how we solve or minimise the problem.

In my opinion all this conflict is a global matter (as is most of what is happening these days) and therefore each of us holds some level or responsibility. The problem I see is that we allow too few people to make too many HUGE decisions on behalf of each of our nations which only causes conflict between different nationalities.

I only wish I knew more about this to discuss it on such a level, sorry if my post is somewhat trivial.

[ungua]

sorry, phreak, are you just trying to count how much a human's life is worth!? btw, the settlers (whereever they were from, calling themselves »americans«) slaughtered also indian children for $2... if i am informed correctly, they received the money from a government-like institution. and that's phreak's aim: the governemnts are doing the bad things, not all the fathers-in-law, fathers, brothers whatever, they are just acting because they are not »allowed« to act different.
i think both of you have quite good arguements. but one thing is, dave, why is it possible to undo an action that's not yet legal with actions from the past!? is it a legend that the paragraph containing the NATO's ation against an offensive country was not yet signed? also the taliban were not accepted as sovereign rulers of a sovereign afghanistan, as far as i know it. i have to face that you know (and have done) a lot of things, dave, that i don't even remember to have READ about but i got some »facts« also - if you don't declare them as »rumors« afterwards... ;-)
in fact there are a lot of things to critisise on the usa, you cannot say there aren't. imho whatever they have done good things in the past there must be the possibility to critisise. remember vietnam? what's better than what the bad japanese did? trees there? :-(
i've just read a book about police and political leaders of 70's usa and it's really scary. after reading it you feel like the us being on a way to totalitarism - as a lot of people (me, too) feel today, too. don't you feel like the americans can do whatever they want to? you said the dutch won't be able to afford such kind of operation as actually happening in afghanistan - such as any other country in the world, standing alone. but the us is closest to it and a lot of countries won't dare to critisise too hard. have you read the article posted by phreak about the jihad school book scandal? what do you think about that? »**** happens«!?

regards,
ungua


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[ungua]

»NATO's ation against an offensive country«... -

sorry for this bullsh*t... what i was talking about were »terrorist groups«... yesterday in the evening when i shut down the computer and starting learning again (i'm actually doing my exams) i just had to clap my hands on my face... writing without thinking... sorry.

regards,
ungua

p.s.: amnesty international was critisising the us for their prison camp in guantanamo now, too. isn't that a crime, too!?

[weldordave]

Well, Phreak, as you know it takes alot for America to come to arms in 99% of it's military actions. Vietnam, Grenada-- I haven't figured those out. Generally it takes a cataclismic event for the US to put the war machine in action. Mediterranin pitates in the early 1800's. The burning of Washington DC by the British in the war of 1812, Pearl Harbor for WWII, Northern invasion and pushing us back into the Pusan Perimeter in Korea, the USS Maine in the Spanish-American War, Santa Anna's Slaughtering of Texans in the War with Mexico, Ponch Villa's raids for Pershing's Mexican Expedition, our own Whiskey Rebellion when President Washington sent troops against Americans for not paying an excise tax on whiskey, and rebellious Dixie for firing on a Federal post. These events awoke the sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve. Now our embassies are bombed, our military barracks are bombed, jet liners fall from the sky, not only here but in places like Scotland. I say the sleeping giant has awakened and his resolve is to put an end to this bull****, not only for us but for everyone. Yer either fur us or agin us. BTW Phreak, I think Panama was a $$ thing. Noriega wasn't giving the US their "cut" of the drug money, so we took his country away from him. And I hope you don't take offense but our interests are your interests. Europe, England, Asia rides the coattails of American military and economic presence. What else kept Russia, China, and the like from engulfing you? It surely was not the threat of annihilation from Holland. America may be your "necessary evil" but it sure beats the alternative, doesn't it? Not alot of people on this site from Moscow, Havana, or Bejing, is there? I'm rootin' for you, were all in this together. (Red Green)
ungua: No, the US or any "government-like institution" did not pay a $2 bounty on Indian children!The Indians themselves did more carnage to each other before the evil whit man came on the sceen. During our westward expansion the Indians can cry "Sand Creek Massacre", we counter with "Minnesota Massacre", they cry "Wounded Knee Massacre", we counter with "Little Big Horn". Back and forth. How about when the Assaboigne and Chippawa were so fed up with the Sioux that they kicked the Sioux out of Minnesota and into the Dakotas? And this pushed the Cheyenne, Crow, and Shoshone futher west into the Blackfoot, Gros ventre, and Flatheads. Wars, killing, etc. This was before our westward expansion! And the "great tribes" of the SW that just disappeared about 200 years before our colonization. So in the 1870's 80's after our civil war which saw carnage beyond any war previous. I think a little restraint was used considering what the sleeping giant could have done. BTW ungua, do you know that a tribe in NW Washington still hunts whales? It is their "right" under a US treaty with them. To preserve their culture the tribe says. Do they hunt whale the way their forefathers did? NO!! They have motorized boats, 50cal. harpoons and sell the killed whale to the highest bidder. The whales and orcas here are so tame and used to people that they will come up to any boat to say "HI". Then the cultural preservist Indians shoot it with a 50cal harpoon and run it to death in their motorized boat! I guess this is the way they did it 300 years ago! What a great race of people!!!!!
Another point to ponder about Indians. Most have French names. The Frenchies or Voyagers just called them the way they saw them. Check out some of the names and their translations!

[ungua]

okay, i didn't know that. but what else shall they live with? it's surely not okay but i can understand that. and maybe without the colonization they would today still not be able to do so. what ever people would do with them now... :-(
i've read the thing with $2 for children and $4 or something for adults in a magazine. unfortunately i forgot where so i don't know the source. and i really don't know who's right then because it's not the first time i read it. anyway, the settlers were invaders. don't you agree on that? and what's your opinion on the school book scandal then? you were telling us we just refer to your comments not to the posted text. but you just say it's boring for you and that's it. you don't even refer to my question.
and why the f*ck is there only one »with or against us«??? you can always differentiate between »good« and »bad«. i suppose you know that!? i mean just for instance: what about ignoring the us? if you don't care about and you're not supposed to support it via the nato or something? let's call it »third way«. you also can agree to the term »war against terror« but you don't need to support the us-american ways in this »war«. don't you think so?

regards,
ungua

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[weldordave]

Well, explain the "third way". You may have a good idea.
The original post was a one-sided, opinionated diatribe that failed miserably in stating more than one, grossly lopsided set of facts. Check out the Isreali website. It has a daily "deathlist" of Isrealis killed by terrorism. But this does not make CNN.
If you view the European and Asian settlement of North America as an invasion you must also view Europeans as invaders. How did Europe get settled to become what it is today? There were these peaceful Neanderthals and then outsiders came and exterminated them. I think you are throwing stones from your glass house!
Finally, I implore you to understand that the American government paid no bounty for dead Indians. During the French & Indian War there was some of this insanity, but even the French and British were soon sickened by this. BTW the French are the ones who introduced the act of scalping to the Indians. I don't know what the Brits or French called this war but I think you know what I am talking about.
Further, the original topic called America's Morality into question. As I stated in my earlier post, it generally takes alot to piss America off. We are a nation of everybody and everything. On the same street you can have a mosque, synagogue, witness hall, catholic cathedral, buddist temple, etc. We have Europeans, Asians, Africans, Indians, Mexicans--- everybody. We have our problems and we deal with them. With this great mix of everything we have, of course there will be problems. But when innocent people start being slaughtered and there is no end in site and it becomes more prevelent throuout the world, you will be introduced to our Navy, Air Force, Marines, and Army. With all their Daisy Cutters, cruise missiles, Abrahms tanks, Black Hawks, etc. How about questioning the "morality" of a country, religion, organization, or people that would destroy thousands of innocent people OF THE WORLD yet not have the backbone to declare a war or show themselves. To hide and cower while they send uneducated, misdirected bafoons to do their killing for them. They are sending forth people as SCUD missiles. What of this morality? Yet Phreak saw fit to introduce a topic which calls questions and makes one-sided jabs against the morality of the people who stood up and said "Enough of this bullsh1t, checkmate-game over."

[aclu14]

War is pointless...war may solve problems but it creates more...nothing good comes out of war...

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Stop monkeying around George Dubya! (http://pics.steakandcheese.com/ookook.jpg)

Join the Oppositionist Party! (http://www.geocities.com/lucifer_is_hungry/opinionated_online)

[Lis]

not entirely true...we do learn how to participate in war should we ever need to know http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

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Despite the cost of living, notice how it remains popular?

[Sjax]

Originally posted by weldordave:
How did Europe get settled to become what it is today? There were these peaceful Neanderthals and then outsiders came and exterminated them. I think you are throwing stones from your glass house!

What do you mean. The european didnt take Europe from anybody. The europeans are the peacefull Neanderthals who have just evolved.

Originally posted by weldordave:
But when innocent people start being slaughtered and there is no end in site and it becomes more prevelent throuout the world, you will be introduced to our Navy, Air Force, Marines, and Army. With all their Daisy Cutters, cruise missiles, Abrahms tanks, Black Hawks, etc.

Thats not true. If that was true, why didnt the american army halp the tutsis in Rwanda in '93. 800 000 tutsis were slaughtered in a couple of months, and USA (along with the rest of the world, true) didnt react.
The truth is that the US only interferes in wars that helps themselves. They have selfish aims in all the wars they have ever fought.
So tell that bullsh1t about helping innocent people to the people of Rwanda, Kashmir, Taiwan, Czechnia, Palestine or any other country who dont have some resource that the US want.

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It is amazing what little harm doctors do when one considers all the opportunity they have.
(Mark Twain)

[Phreakmeister]

Don't forget Tibet, Afghanistan up to 2001, Rio de Oro, Zaïre, Ingushetia, Ossetia, Dagestan, Vojvodina, Burundi...



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R.I.P. Rafael
(July 26, 1983 - April 15th, 2002)

[ungua]

dave, unfortunately the »third way« was a lot of theoretic kind. but imagine you'd have a neutral country which is not a member of the nato and which is not addicted to economical boundaries with the us. what i meant with »third way« then would not be a »with us« - joining any kind of force to eliminate terrorism - or »against us« - being a terrorist themselves, not fighting with the americans; whatever this might mean - but just saying »that's not our matter«. so you just have people then saying they are not joining this american war. maybe let me point out that i am not of this opinion but i just wanted to say that i really don't like this »with or against us«-propaganda that is imho absolutely unnecessary and makes the people think in a much too easy scheme.
where the neanderthals peaceful? scientists found a skeleton showing weapon harms some time ago... anyway, where came the european invaders from then? every human life has its origin in africa - as far as i know it - but an unsettled continent cannot be invaded...!?
i think you're right about that scalp- thing. but just because my BAD brain doesn't work well enough... :-(
there are surely a lot of »moralities« to be questioned but the thing on the us is that they declare themselves as the best, the democratic, the christians... you cannot say the us don't have a leading function but what's it worth if they undermine their own principles all the time!? you're supposedly referring to any kind of terorist, hiding and bombing. but as you can see they're some kind of offspring of american politics, too. just see the school book scandal that you still didn't comment in this thread... ;-)

regards,
ungua

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http://masses.ungua.de" TARGET=_blank>http://eidsbugarden.ungua.de
http://masses.ungua.de</A>

[weldordave]

Sjax, you state that the US only acts in their own selfish interests. DUH!! We are a country, not a benelovent society doing Mother Thersa work. I would hope that anything my country did would be in our interest! Why does YOUR country do anything? IT'S IN THEIR INTEREST! Why do people go to work, earn a paycheck, and make a living? IT'S IN THEIR INTEREST! Why do you go to school, study, and get high grades? IT'S IN YOUR INTEREST!
RAWANDA: There wasn't anything between your country and Rawanda but air. Where were you guys? And Phreak, where was your country during all the incidents that you mentioned? Maybe it was because of that "interest thing"? So the conclusion is that you do nothing if there's nothing in it for you, and so do we. Wow, our countries act alike, don't they? Do you think that America invented this idea of actions based on the interests of the country? Reread you history. We learned it from YOU.
UNGUA: the Neanderthal was an example of how people and cultures are absorbed and swallowed up by advancing peoples and cultures. To view Americans as invaders and destroyers of the Indians is a little beneath you. The people have their culture and continue on the time line as they want to. Most favor European ways, capitalism, and the pursuit of material things. They have intermarried and have been absorbed into society. Reference Indian casinos and the annual Makaw whale hunt (what a joke). Further, it just may be that the Scandinavians were here way before Asians crossed the Bearing Sea and came down to the US proper. Reference Kenniwick Man. And anyway, what would you have us do? Send everyone who is not an Indian back to where they came from? Impossible as we are about as mixed a race as you can get. Even the Indian blood is so watered down that most of them would have to go too. So, as I said before, it is easy to point a finger at America and question our morality. But what of yours? Your country's? Your people's?
Of our morality, after WW2 there was a strong idea that all of Germany, including Jutland, be "plowed under, make it agrarian, no building over two stories". Did this happen? Our selfish interests lead to the exact opposite. Rebuild these countries and let's do business with them! The only real blemish on our morality, and I'm surprised Phreak has not brought it up, is what we did to the Bakini Atoll and it's people. You do the research.

[Sjax]

OK Dave
1: I only said the selfish thing to argue with your remark But when innocent people start being slaughtered and there is no end in site and it becomes more prevelent throuout the world, you will be introduced to our Navy, Air Force, Marines, and Army
which gave me the impression that you thought that USA attacked other countries to help innocent people.
2: Regarding Rwanda: Your right. As I stated in my post we didnt help them either, but then again, we dont interfere in other countries affairs at all (except me, in this forum, of course http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif) We havent had a Vietnam or anything like that. Thats the point. As far as I know, Denmark hasnt taken initiative to attack another country since they attacked Germany in 1864. The US attacks countries all the time, and you try to justify it with, that its to help innocent people.
You're right. Any country in the world tries to help themselves, but very few does it like USA, by attacking others. I believe you call that type of countries Rogue Nations.


[This message has been edited by Sjax (edited April 24, 2002).]

[weldordave]

Good point on the Rogue Nation thing. I guess that when you're the Rogue Nation it's hard to view yourself as such. I always like to think that we're TRYING to do the right thing. Tell you what, Sjax, I'll think about the "other side of the fence" for a while. Though I don't agree with much our government does, I do support it. And believe me that is getting harder and harder to do! Especially in April (tax time).
But, Sjax, throughout time there has always been at least one country acting as the world police force. Whose turn it was depended on economic, military, technology, trade, and food factors. Since WW2 it seems to have been the turn of the US. It will not be our turn forever. Who is next? Those that want the US to shrink back, go away, be confined within their own borders, and become an isolated country will someday get their wish. But who is next? "Be careful what you wish for, you might get it." Along with the shrinking back of the US so goes the food, money, trade, and defense. If, heaven forbid, the peaceful country of Denmark is threatened by destruction, do you have a "plan B"?

[Phreakmeister]

Originally posted by weldordave:
Though I don't agree with much our government does, I do support it.

Now let me get this straight: you support something you don't agree with?????????


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R.I.P. Rafael
(July 26, 1983 - April 15th, 2002)

[weldordave]

The government, yes. Some of what it does, no. I've always thought that if a person does not support his government or it's actions he should become a citizen of a country more suited to his ideals. Or, there is revolution if it is a popular front.

[ungua]

sorry if my explanation was so easy to misunderstand but i didn't mean that you shall pull back all the »advancing cultures« from where they are! what i meant was just that you have some kind of responsibility for the cultures you are destroying when you settle somewhere. so for the american society it's the specialities for the indians, such as running casinos, limited whale hunting. that's good - imho. but still a lot of indians suffer from a bad position in your society. a lot of minorities do so but the indians shall be a special concern. do you know now what i mean?
but what about your reference to the scandinavian explorers? did they have war with the indians back then? i always thought that the historical situation is not clear. (but vikings are supposed to have war with the indians...)
»our selfish interests lead to the exact opposite« - that's it. and in this one issue it was good for the others. but what if people might have thought they should show the russians one more time how much they are in advance to them? what if another a-bomb would have gone down in germany? okay, it didn't happen and the much bigger interest was in trade and moneymaking with europe's largest single nation. but i'm very sorry for japan - and that's also to blame on the american morality!
revolution is possible if everybody really shows that they don't agree with their government. maybe you don't need a revolution but just different kinds of leaders. and a proper way of electing them... ;-)

regards,
ungua

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http://masses.ungua.de" TARGET=_blank>http://eidsbugarden.ungua.de
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[aclu14]

Oppositionist party slogans - "I am a revolutionary, and logic is my revolution." "There is a fine line between politics and anarchy, and we are that line."

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Stop monkeying around George Dubya! (http://pics.steakandcheese.com/ookook.jpg)

Join the Oppositionist Party! (http://www.geocities.com/lucifer_is_hungry/opinionated_online)

[weldordave]

ungua, the A-Bombs on Japan were not a question of American morality. It was a logistical decision. Did we have enough men to invade Japan? Maybe your country could've done it? Where were you? Maybe your nations capital could have been the next Nanking! When countries become laydowns and allow themselves to be taken over they always cry to the US or England to come to their rescue. Decisions have to be made. Maybe it's not what you like but it sure beats the alternative, right? The second guessing of English/American decisions by countries who allowed themselves to be run over amaze me. Maybe next time we won't come. Have fun with the next power that you allow yourselves to be overrun by!

[Mike n]

The responsibility for my kids is not yours, but mine.
The responsibility for your kids is yours, not mine.

And so it is with nations. I think one of the mistakes on this
thread is considering the citizens of waring nations as
the responsibility of the other's government. It isn't.

The responsibility for the lives of the citizens of any country
lies squarly on the shoulders of that nation's government.
Not on the shoulders of other governments. So, if an attacked
nation must kill civilians of the aggressor nation in order to save
itself then so be it. There is nothing immoral about it. In fact, it
is a moral imperitive that the attacked nation do whatever it
takes to protect its own citizens. In so doing, the attacked
nation's government is fullfilling its primary moral obligation,
protecting its own citizens.

A second mistake I believe, is in considering the civilians of
waring nations as "innocents". They are not!
The citizens of aggressor nations usually support the activities
of their governments and in so doing share in the guilt. But
even if they don't agree with their government, if they assist
it in any way they cannot expect to be exempt from the
inevitable retaliation.

Even the citizens of the attacked nation may not be morally
innocent. It could be that they supported a decades long
policy of appeasing aggressor nations thus emboldening
such nations to attack.

This may sound to some as a rather harsh moral position.
It is. And for a good reason. Reality itself is very harsh.

Mike n
You have a very good head on your shoulders. I agree with your thinking 100%

[Mike n]

myemail,com: Thanks!

[Serendipity]

The responsibility for the lives of the citizens of any country lies squarly on the shoulders of that nation's government. Mike N: So when the Luftwaffe killed 20,000 of my compatriots in the East End of London during WWII, Churchill's government was responsible for those deaths, was it? Funny how he never seems to get the blame - it's always those nasty Nazis.:rolleyes:

[BrotherBluto17]

So the question is Dips...

Is public opinion always correct?

I think not.

[Mike n]

Serindipity:
I think you may have misunderstood my post. I was speaking
in terms of principles. You offered a concrete example
suggesting I might be wrong. Let us see.

When the Germans killed 20,000 Brits in East London it was
because that is what aggressor nations do. They have no qualms
about killing foreign civilians because the lives of these are
worth even less than the worthless lives of their own citizens
whom they've allready enslaved. So, the majority of blame
for those 20,000 deaths would lie on the shoulders of the
Germans. It would all lie there if and only if the Churchill
government made no attempts to appease Hitler. But if such
appeasements were made then the Churchill government
must shoulder at least some blame.

And here is why. Hitler did not want to engage the U.S. for at least a few years. The reason? Fear. The one concept
aggressors understand clearly. When you try to appease an
aggressor you remove some of his fear of you and invite
his aggression. If you stand firm all the time you reinforce
his fear of you. And that is what you want.

I hope this clarifies things a bit.

[Serendipity]

Why the hell should anybody make any attempt to appease Hitler?

[Sephirstein]

You mean that thing where theocrats have more rights than homosexuals?

[Sephirstein]

Hello, it's happening again with China-Taiwan only this time Hitler's name is Jiang Zemin.

[Phreakmeister]

Originally posted by Sephirstein
You mean that thing where theocrats have more rights than homosexuals?

If two men confess each other their love for each other, the country is too small. But when two me beat the living daylights out of each other, there's no problem whatsoever...