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February 22nd, 2002, 06:47 PM
Here is a list of some of the blatent censorship going on in the USA since September 11th. Comments please on your view of censorship/free-speech, and how far you should be allowed to go.

ART
In September 2001, officials at the Baltimore Museum of Art removed a painting, acquired in 1990, titled "Terrorist" from the contemporary wing "out of respect to visitors' sensitivities." The painting, an acrylic and aliminum piece measuring 96 by 64 inches, featured three fragmented lines - "TER," ROR" and "IST" in large black stenciled letters. An official from the BMA later said that the work would be reinstalled with an accompanying placard describing the artist's motive for the work.

Source - "BMA Pulls Art Bearing Word 'Terrorist'" - Baltimore Sun - 9/17/01, "Sensitivity Led to Removal of 'Terrorist' Art, BMA Says" - Baltimore Sun - 9/18/01

The Boston Symphony Orchestra announced the cancellation of performances featuring "The Death of Klinghoffer" in November and December 2001. "The Death of Klinghoffer" is an opera by John Adams about Palestinian hijackers killing a passenger on an American cruise ship in 1985. The Orchestra explained that the reason for the decision was due to the events of September 11th and concern by some that the opera was sympathetic to the hijackers.

Source - "Massachusetts: Symphony Cancels 'Klinghoffer'" - New York Times - 11/2/01

After a complaint from a patron, federal agents investigated officials at the private Art Car Museum in Houston after the museum recently displayed a work titled "EmpyTrellis (revisted)". The work, part of the museum's "Secret Wars" exhibit, is a charcoal drawing of President Bush at a speaker's podium enclosed by a steel trellis shaped like a half globe. The artist claims that the piece is mean to be a commentary on U.S. environemntal policies. The Secret Service also reportedly asked questions about a painting in the exhibit that featured a buring city skyline.

Source - "Museum Staff Defends Secret Wars Exhibit" - Houston Chronicle - 12/12/01

The director and senior curator of the Southeast Museum of Photography at Daytona Beach Community College's resigned in December 2001, claiming that she was told to cancel a February exhibit of Afghanistan photos. Museum officials claim that she wasn't told to cancel the exhibit but was told to reschedule it to a date that didn't coincide with another exhibit celebrating patriotism.

Source - "Photography Museum Director Resigns Over Afghanistan Exhibit" - Daytona Beach New-Journal - 12/13/01


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ENTERTAINMENT
Within days of the attacks, Clear Channel Communications circulated a list of songs to its 1,200 channels across the country suggesting that they use good judgment in playing any of the 150 songs on the list. Included on the list are obvious songs such as "Jet Airliner" by the Steve Miller Band and "My City Was Gone" by the Pretenders. The list also included such songs as "America" by Neil Diamond and "Ruby Tuesday" by the Rolling Stones and many songs with a political message such as all songs by the band Rage Against the Machine and "Imagine" by John Lennon.

Source - Numerous sources

On the 9/17/01 edition of the TV show Politically Incorrect, host Bill Maher and conservative commentator Dinesh D'Souza discuss the events of September 11th. D'Souza refers to the attackers as "warriors" while Maher states that, in comparison, the U.S. government has acted like cowards because it had previously launched missles at targets thousands of miles away in contrast to those who flew airplanes into buildings. Following news of the exchange, such companies as Federal Express, Sears-Roebuck and Quizno's pull advertising from Politically Incorrect and some local TV stations refuse to air the show.

Source - Numerous sources

In October 2001, Newsday reported that it pulled the comic strip "The Boondocks" from its paper because it criticized U.S. support of Osama bin Laden during the Soviet/Afghanistan war. Newsday maintains that it took the action so as to not offend New Yorkers. (Since the 10/9/01 article was written, The Boondocks has returned to the pages of Newsday).

Source - "Drawing on the Headlines" - Newsday - 10/9/01

In November 2001, the St. George (Utah) Spectrum printed a front page apology after publishing an editorial cartoon by syndicated cartoonist Steve Benson. The cartoon featured President Bush in a fighter plane dropping bombs that had such messages as "killing innocent civilians" and "starving millions of Afghans" on them.

Source - "St. George Paper Apologizes for Cartoon" - Salt Lake City Tribune - 11/14/01

The Boondocks Thanksgiving day strip was removed from the Dallas Morning News and replaced with an older strip because it was critical of President Bush. The strip in question featured the character Huey Freeman saying grace at Thanksgiving dinner. During grace, Huey said, "...in this time of war against Osama Bin Laden and the oppressive Taliban regime, we are thankful that our leader isn't the spoiled son of a powerful politician from a wealthy oil family who is supported by religious fundamentalists, operates through clandestine organizations, has no respect for the democratic electoral process, bombs innocents and uses war to deny people their civil liberties. Amen."

Source - "What's Up, 'Docks?" - Dallas Observer - 12/11/01


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NEWS & COMMENTARY

Tom Gutting, city editor for the Texas City Sun was fired in September 2001 after writing a column in which referred to President Bush as a "scared child seeking refuge in his mother's bed after having a nightmare" for not returning to Washington DC immediately after hearing about the attacks on September 11th.
Source - "Columnists Fired After Criticizing Bush" - Editor & Publisher - 9/27/01

In September 2001, Dan Guthrie, a columnist for the Grants Pass Daily Courier in Oregon was fired after he wrote a column criticizing Bush for not being more visible following news of the September 11th attacks

Source - "Columnists Fired After Criticizing Bush" - Editor & Publisher - 9/27/01

The National Review and Denham Springs News (Louisiana) dropped conservative commentator Ann Coulter's syndicated column from its website and terminated her as a contributing editor. Her dismissal came after penning two consecutive columns soon after the attacks. One recommended invading countries, killing their leaders and converting them to Christianity. The other discussed "suspicious-looking swarthy males" and a policy to require passports for domestic flights. The National Review Online posted the first column but not the second. After hearing of the decision to not run the second column, Coulter roudly criticized the editors and was then dismissed.

Source - "National Review Cans Columnist Ann Coulter" - Washington Post - 10/2/01

In September 2001, the U.S. Department of State asked Voice of America, a U.S. government-funded radio network, to refrain from running an interview with Mullah Mohammad Omar, leader of Afghanistan's ruling Taliban saying that airing the interview would be providing a means for terrorists to communicate their messages and that it wasn't "newsworthy". After staffers protested, the State Department relented and the interview aired on 9/25/01.

Sources - Numerous sources

In October 2001, National Security Advisor Condoleeza Rice contacted the five networks to caution them against running interviews of Osama bin Laden out of fear that his televised addresses may contain hidden messages for his followers, inspire his followers and frighten Americans.

Sources - "The Networks, Giving Aid to the Enemy?" - Washington Post - 10/12/01, "TV Networks to Limit Use Of Tapes From Bin Laden" - Washington Post - 10/11/01

Washington University in St. Louis refused to allow a reporter for the St. Louis Post-Dispatch on campus to provide coverage of a 9/20/01 student rally supporting restraint and an international solution as a response to the events of September 11th. Campus police refused the reporter entrance because she did not fulfill University guidelines mandating that all media personnel be escorted by a public affairs staff member and requesting of access to the campus through the public affairs office.

Source - "Wash U Hampers Press Freedom" - St. Louis Journalism Review - October 2001

Syndicated radio host Peter Werbe's talk-radio show was dropped by radio station KOMY-AM in Santa Cruz, California in early October 2001 after questioning U.S. military actions in Afghanistan.

Source - "Uncivil Liberty" - Metro Santa Cruz Newspaper - 10/26/01

In September 2001, a freelance reporter from Oregon was told he could not interview a researcher from the Center for Disease Control and Prevention because the Department of Health & Human Services forbids all interviews having to do with terrorism or disasters.

Source - "Panelists Tell Editors: Congressional Efforts to Protect Freedom May Thwart It" - www.freedomforum.org (http://www.freedomforum.org) - 10/15/01

A poll taken by Pew Research Center for People & the Press in mid-October 2001 revealed that 6 out of 10 Americans felt that the military - not news organizations - should have more control over the news regarding the U.S. bombings in Afghanistan and 50% believed that news organizations should not air speeches by Osama bin Laden.

Source - Poll: Public Not Rattled by Anthrax Reports; Six in 10 Say Military Should Exert Control Over War News - Associated Press - 10/16/01

Someone claiming to be a federal agent phoned Hypervine, an Internet service provider, to inform them that they may be in violation of anti-terrorism laws and could have their assets seized for allowing Cosmic Entertainment to air three radio shows over the Internet. The three shows are IRA Radio, about Irish news and politics, Al Lewis Live, a radio show hosted by ex-"Munster" Al Lewis and Our Americas, a spanish-language show about rebels in Latin America. After receiving the call, Hypervine shut down all three shows. The FBI has declined to comment.

Source - "'Radical" Radio Shows Forced From the Net" - USA Today - 10/16/01

In October 2001, the National Imagery and Mapping Agency entered into an exclusive agreement with Space Imaging, Inc. to purchase all of the rights of the satellite photos that the company is taking of Afghanistan and surrounding areas. The National Imagery and Mapping Agency is part of the U.S. Defense Department and Space Imaging, Inc. is regarded as the best source in the world for such high resolution satellite photos. While the Pentagon claims that the agreement is meant to supplement the government's own satellite images, some observers have pointed out that the agreement means that the news media will no longer have access to such images and will, as a result, be hampered from reporting on various basic aspects of military actions in Afghanistan and will not be able to independently verify Pentagon claims.

Source - "Pentagon Corners Output of Special Afghan Images" - New York Times - 10/19/01

In October 2001, NBC News White House correspondent, Campbell Brown, was contacted by phone by a senior administration official who "gently chided' her for tough questioning of Tom Ridge, the head of the Office of Homeland Security, during a press briefing.

Source - "Bush Plans Speech With Coherent, Unified Message" - New York Times - 11/2/01


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SCHOOLS
Patricia Bowes, an art teacher at Addison Minzer Elementary School in Palm Beach County, Florida was suspended for encouraging her students to express their feelings about the events through their artwork. School officials later say that the suspension had more to do with Bowes demonstrating to students how a hijacker could take over a plane using a knife-like object after students inquired.


Sources - "Boca Art Teacher Suspended Over Pupils' Sketches of Terror" - South Florida Sun-Sentinel - 9/19/01, "Suspended Teacher Demonstrated Hijacker's Possible Tactics" - Palm Beach Post - 9/21/01

On 9/18/01, the Daily Californian, a student-run campus newspaper at UC Berkeley, ran an editorial cartoon by syndicated cartoonist Darrin Bell. The cartoon featured two Muslim Arabs in the hand of a demon and surrounded by flames discussing their having made it to paradise. After the cartoon appeared in the paper, student protestors declared a sit-in at the Daily Californian offices and presented the paper with a list of demands including a printed apology. When the paper refused to meet the protestors's demands the student senate drafted a bill to raise the rent of the paper and subject all staffers to mandatory sensitivity training.

Sources - "University of Censorship's Fall Semester" - San Francisco Chronicle - 10/11/01

In October 2001, the Pennsylvania House of Representatives passed a bill, by a 200-1 vote, that would mandate that students recite the Pledge of Allegiance or sing the national anthem during each school day unless the school had written permission from a parent exempting their child.

Source - "Bill Would Compel Pledge or Anthem in Pa. Schools" - Philadelphia Inquirer/AP - 10/17/01

A substitute teacher with the Pittsburgh Public Schools is suspended on 9/20/01 for writing "Osama bin Laden did us a favor. He vulcanized us, awakened us and strengthened our resolve" in the margins of a newspaper that he later threw away. The teacher later had a chance to explain that he wrote the lines after hearing them on a newscast and was using them for a book he's writing about making the best of horrible situations. After further investigation, the teacher was reinstated.

Sources - "Sub Teacher Fired Over bin Laden Note" - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette - 9/21/01, "Substitute Teacher Gets His Job Back Pronto After Suspension for bin Laden Writing" - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette - 9/22/01

In September 2001, A fifth-grade student from Jefferson County, Missouri (near St. Louis) was suspended for three days for drawing a picture of the World Trade Center on fire and taping it to his study cubicle. When asked why he drew it, the student allegedly did not answer but grinned. A spokesperson for the school district said that the student was suspended for the grinning and not the drawing itself.

Source - "School Suspends Buy Who Drew Picture of Attack, Then Grinned While Showing It" - St. Louis Post Dispatch - 10/4/01

In October 2001, A high school student from Fairview Park, Ohio was suspended for 10 days for displaying posters on his locker. The posters featured an eagle with a tear drop and several had bombers drawn on them with messages such as "May God have mercy, because we will not." School officials suspended the student, Aaron Pettit, because they viewed the posters as threats against Arab-American students. Pettit sued the school in federal court and was reinstated.

Source - "Fairview Student Was Disciplined for Hanging Patriotic Posters" - 10/10/01 - Cleveland Plain Dealer

In Topeka, Kansas, McCarter Elementary School officials implemented a policy whereby students were forbidden to wear traditional Halloween costumes to school and, instead, will only be allowed to wear costumes with patriotic themes.

Source - "School Nixes Traditional Costumes" - 10/24/01 - Topeka Capital-Journal

School officials at Newton North High School in Massachusetts came under fire from some parents for allowing Boston University professor and author Howard Zinn to speak to students in mid-November 2001 in the school's auditorium. During his speech, Zinn criticized the U.S. war against Afghanistan and U.S. foreign policy.

Source - "High School Speech by Peace Prof Raises Ire" - 11/20/01 - Boston Herald

School officials in Bexley, Ohio were criticized after having a Muslim speaker associated with the Council on American-Islamic Relations address students at a high school assembly in November 2001.

Source - "School Board Backs Muslim Speaker" - 12/18/01


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WORKPLACE
Jonnie Hargis, an employee at the Young Research Library at UCLA, received an e-mail from co-worker Michelle Torre that was sent to other employees at the library. The e-mail contains "America: The Good Neighbor," a speech written by Canadian Gordon Sinclair in the early 1970's. Hargis responded to the e-mail by calling into question U.S. support of policies by Israel against Palestinians. Hargis was subsequently suspended without pay for 5 days for violating a policy that forbids sending unsolicited e-mails containing political, religious or patriotic messages to library department lists. That policy was created the same day that Hargis was suspended and Torre received no disciplinary action. Hargis' union has since filed a grievance with the University

Source - "YRL Employee Punished for Political Mass E-Mail" - (UCLA) Daily Bruin - 10/4/01

In September 2001, the library staff at Florida Gulf Coast University were told to not wear their "I'm Proud to be an American Stickers" because they might offend foreign students at the school.

Source - "College's Librarians Barred From Wearing American Pride Stickers" - www.freedomforum.org (http://www.freedomforum.org) - 9/19/01


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MISCELLANEOUS
In October 2001, a 22-year-old man was kicked off of two different flights, on the same day, by United Airlines at Philadelphia International Airport because airport security thought he might be a safety risk. The controversy began when the man, Neil Godfrey, had his luggage randomly searched and it was discovered that he had a copy of Hayduke Lives! a novel about a radical environmentalist who destroys property. The book's front cover features an illustration of a hand holding dynamite. After being questioned several times by a variety of airport security, law enforcement officials and even a National Guardsman, Godfrey was denied the opportunity to board his flight.

After returning home and contacting an United Airlines official, Godfrey was told he would be able to travel on a later flight. For the second flight, he chose a Harry Potter book. Upon returning to the airport, Godfrey's luggage was again searched, he was again questioned by airport security, law enforcement and a National Guardsman, his book again examined, and he was patted down. Ultimately, Godfrey was also denied the opportunity to fly on the second flight.

Source - "Novel Security Measures" - Philadelphia City Paper - October 18-25, 2001

When President Bush visited Sacramento, California, approximately 30 anti-war protesters attempted to move into a space where others were standing to view the president's motorcade they were prevented from doing so by Sacramento police. A Secret Service spokesman blamed the action on "miscommunication" between the Secret Service and the local police.

Source - "High-Profile Sacramento Visitor Puts Free Speech to the Test" - Sacramento Bee - November 4, 2001

Yahoo and other online message boards have been removing postings related to the events of September 11th that they deem offensive. Included among the messages that were removed are postings linking users to websites that advocate a holy war against the Western world and messages from users that say the U.S. deserved the attacks. Arab-American advocates are also alleging that these same companies ignore postings that are anti-Arab and anti-Muslim.

Source - "Online Companies Draw Fire for Removing 'Offensive' Postings" - Newsbytes/Washington Post - November 19, 2001

February 23rd, 2002, 07:30 AM
Kinda like McCarthyism eh?

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Co-Owner
Bueno Technologies

Phreakmeister
February 23rd, 2002, 12:15 PM
Another "school"-incident:

A girl was wearing a T-Shirt, saying "Anti Bush, Anti Bin Laden". She was suspended from college, because allegedly she hurt the feelings of Bush-supporters. She went to the State Supreme Court for this, saying that her suspension violated the freedom of speech. However, the Supreme Court confirmed the suspension..........................

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Do you believe in death after life?

aclu14
February 23rd, 2002, 10:58 PM
I absolutely hate ultra-patriotic people. Also, I would hate to live in Pennsylvania because students are required to say the pledge. Personally, I think the Pledge of Allegiance is government-imposed patriotism propaganda. in the Pennsylvania case, it stomps on the first amendment.

"In September 2001, A fifth-grade student from Jefferson County, Missouri (near St. Louis) was suspended for three days for drawing a picture of the World Trade Center on fire and taping it to his study cubicle. When asked why he drew it, the student allegedly did not answer but grinned. A spokesperson for the school district said that the student was suspended for the grinning and not the drawing itself."

Suspended for smiling. What is this world coming to?

"Within days of the attacks, Clear Channel Communications circulated a list of songs to its 1,200 channels across the country suggesting that they use good judgment in playing any of the 150 songs on the list. Included on the list are obvious songs such as "Jet Airliner" by the Steve Miller Band and "My City Was Gone" by the Pretenders. The list also included such songs as "America" by Neil Diamond and "Ruby Tuesday" by the Rolling Stones and many songs with a political message such as all songs by the band Rage Against the Machine and "Imagine" by John Lennon."

This is absolutely ridiculous. If you don't like what's playing on the radio, you turn it off or switch the station. Duh!

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cleoeo
February 24th, 2002, 08:16 AM
We will preserve and uphold the American Constitution if we have to violate every article in it to do so.

Idnew
February 24th, 2002, 10:21 PM
LOL Cleoeo that's about the size of it. Some of this mess is getting so out of hand it's not one bit funny and not just on the above.

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aclu14
February 25th, 2002, 09:02 PM
NOT funnay Idnew
Cleoeo i strongly disagree

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I'll think of a better sig when I feel like it! Now stop bothering me! :D

Join the Oppositionist Party! (http://www.geocities.com/lucifer_is_hungry/opinionated_online)

February 26th, 2002, 07:13 PM
Arm yourselves while you still can. It's only going to get worse.

Serendipity
February 26th, 2002, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by aclu14:
NOT funnay Idnew
Cleoeo i strongly disagree



Aclu, Cleoeo is one of the members here who can really use irony... http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif I wish Hex's use of brevity matched! http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by Serendipity (edited February 26, 2002).]

cleoeo
March 2nd, 2002, 08:16 AM
How about a bumber sticker with a big Stars & Stripes on it and the slogan "Shut Up And Wave Your Flag!".

aclu14
March 2nd, 2002, 11:52 PM
or a bumper sticker that says "Silence me and i'll sue you

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I'll think of a better sig when I feel like it! Now stop bothering me! :D

Join the Oppositionist Party! (http://www.geocities.com/lucifer_is_hungry/opinionated_online)

Enforcer
March 3rd, 2002, 05:24 AM
`*feels he pays to much telephone bills to rerads all that*
*will reply later when he has read it offline*
*loves reffering to himself in the third person*

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Respect my authority!BEEFCAKE!

[This message has been edited by Enforcer (edited March 03, 2002).]

March 5th, 2002, 03:38 PM
Here's another "incident" that you forgot. In December, the sherriff of the county I happen to live in made up a "personal" Christmas card with him dressed in an Army uniform, more like a Special Forces uniform, and holding a sword in one hand and the head of Osama in the other. Scrawled across the top was "HAPPY RAMADAN!" http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/mad.gif http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/mad.gif http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/mad.gif http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/mad.gif http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/mad.gif Needless to say, it caused quite an uproar. What I wondered about the whole thing was, if it was supposed to be "personal," how the heck did the media get hold of it?

aclu14
March 13th, 2002, 09:11 PM
Thats kinda funny http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif
Welcome Kid

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ungua
March 15th, 2002, 05:18 AM
okay, from a german point of view: the american government wasn't even elected. therefore the americans would have marched into a developing country saying »they're not even able to have elections; we'll control them«. who marches in the us?
everybody is afraid of the us: bush is seen as a complete idiot (maybe not just in europe?), he equals north korea, irak and afghanistan (»WHAT THE F*CK...???« might have been the most common thought upon that), the americans want to develop small atomic weapons and they even increase the taxes on steel-imports (a first step???) - so what shall people think?
according to humanism and democratic ideas it is not allowed to torture people in the us - that's why the cia takes people out of the us to torture them, afterwards bring them back. what about the nsa? scanning all e-mails and stuff like that.
has anybody ever read »1984« by orwell? i didn't think it is possible to compare a totalitarian country to a modern democracy. but let's face it: there're some parallels.

btw, i don't want to create some anti-us-propaganda but in fact free speech (and therefore free critisism) is one of the main points on democracy and this point is actually hurt! it's not all bad there but i don't want to live in a country where you get imprisoned for driving to fast and stuff like that... you don't even have to look on the »big politics«.

sorry for that. attack me.

regards,
ungua

\http://eidsbugarden.ungua.de

aclu14
March 15th, 2002, 10:00 PM
Mmm?

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ungua
March 20th, 2002, 03:39 AM
it just poured out of me hearing this text... sorry...

ungua

Enforcer
March 20th, 2002, 05:12 AM
*agrees*

Haven't read that book, but maybe I should...

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Phreakmeister
March 20th, 2002, 07:15 AM
You really should. And read "Animal Farm" by George Orwell and "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley too. And "Boys from Brazil", by Ira Levin. Good books.

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The Horseman
March 22nd, 2002, 04:23 PM
Can I just throw the film 'Brazil' into that list? It's sort of a black-humoured version of '1984'. Difficult going sometimes (if you like your films simple, don't bother with it), but it gets the idea of a apocalyptic, totalitarian society across really well.

March 23rd, 2002, 02:19 PM
I totally agree with ungua. btw i don't live in the US. And I don't like it, as you may have gathered from my other posts http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/wink.gif

jettmotto
March 23rd, 2002, 03:51 PM
i saw a 2 part comic in our local newspaper in Indiana that had Bush on the first part saying "drugs support terrorist" and the second part had a pic with a guy filling up his BIG S.U.V at the gas pump and behind the pump was a guy holding a big bag of money that said Al Qaida. no point just humrous i guess

Phreakmeister
March 29th, 2002, 07:00 PM
News about September 11th. Check this out: http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreurs_en.htm

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Do you believe in death after life?

ungua
April 5th, 2002, 04:44 AM
****** all my text just disappeared in an error... :-(
i was just writing that i've now read »brave new world«, too, and although there are no obvious connections after all you get a strange feeling of a common sense. did anyone else feel it, too?

regards,
ungua

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April 21st, 2002, 10:05 PM
JUNIOR's Patriot Bill efectively suspened civil rights in the uSA. Americans are just too stupid to realize it.

Sjax
April 22nd, 2002, 09:43 AM
It is actually pretty clever to call something a "patriot bill" or "patriot act". Who is gonna vote no to something patriotic?

Lis
April 22nd, 2002, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by ungua:
****** all my text just disappeared in an error... :-(
i was just writing that i've now read »brave new world«, too, and although there are no obvious connections after all you get a strange feeling of a common sense. did anyone else feel it, too?

regards,
ungua



God yeah, its one of my English texts for my HSC (final year at school)...I must say despite the message I actually found it to be a pretty attractive place for the most part.

ungua
April 23rd, 2002, 11:14 AM
i am going to have my final english exam on april, 30th. but not connected to these books... so how did you mean the thing with the »attractive place«? did you like the world of »brave new world«? i mean, the creators did their best to make the people feel fine but the book is questioning their right to do so - imho. i don't think that anybody has the right to decide over anybody else, as long as this person hasn't done anything wrong...

regards,
ungua

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weldordave
April 24th, 2002, 05:59 AM
Originally posted by Yukon:
JUNIOR's Patriot Bill efectively suspened civil rights in the uSA. Americans are just too stupid to realize it.
Hmmm, uh, lets see. I'm an American and my cival rights have been "effectively suspended". Can you tell me just exactly which of my rights have been suspended? Then I will know what not to do, as I am still doing everything I have done my whole life. Maybe you can tell me just what are American Civil Rights, since I am an American and by your standards too stupid to know what they are. I'm sure a more superior intelligent person, such as you claim to be, would love to educate stupid Americans as to their civil rights and the "effective suspension" thereof. As a stupid American, I am clearing my calender to await the educational opportunity this presents. Please do not let the stupid Americans down. We really do need a person like you to explain our civil rights to us and the "effective suspension" of them.

April 24th, 2002, 09:08 AM
WELD,

You are indeed a very naive person to think that one must "use" a civil right to lose it.

Take a few moments and read though JUNIOR;s Patriot Bill and you will see that the USA has effectively become a police state.

aclu14
April 25th, 2002, 09:11 PM
Yay.

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weldordave
April 26th, 2002, 04:52 AM
Originally posted by Yukon:
WELD,

You are indeed a very naive person to think that one must "use" a civil right to lose it.

Take a few moments and read though JUNIOR;s Patriot Bill and you will see that the USA has effectively become a police state.

Now where in my post did I say ANYTHING about "use" of a civil right vs losing it? Oh, and what our my civil rights (?again), just so I know what was "efectively suspended"?

weldordave
April 26th, 2002, 05:40 AM
Originally posted by Yukon:
WELD,

You are indeed a very naive person to think that one must "use" a civil right to lose it.

Take a few moments and read though JUNIOR;s Patriot Bill and you will see that the USA has effectively become a police state.

Oh my god! My civil rights have been "effectively suspended" and now we are "effectively a police state". Man, the news just keeps getting worse with each of your posts! Is your address 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue? What incredible insight you have. I gather you are in Canada. Why do I see so many BC plates here in Pugetropolis? They must be here to see the police state and the people with no civil rights! Not for cheap smokes and beer!
And Junior, don't confuse "naive" with life experience. I've spent many years (probably more years than you've been alive) overseas in Asian and Central Asian countries, friendly and non-friendly. I've lived, worked, ate, slept, got drunk with, and argued with THE PEOPLE. Sitting in your room and reading executive orders and legislation is one thing but life is a far better school. What is written, enacted, accepted, enforced, and condoned depends on many factors. Do you know of the executive orders that have been shot down by either the Judicial or Legislative branches? And vice versa? Checks and balances and then the will of the People. Chicken Little ran around saying "The sky is falling". Not me. Relax, our civil rights are still there and we are not a police state, or states as there are 50 of us plus our territories. The same old US is here, plodding along like a bull in a china shop! Adjustments are being made and current doctrine being reviewed. Maybe the next elections will bring a different course. Then you will have a whole new US to b1tch about! And if you are not American, yukon, will YOU come and save us from these evil doings? The Canadian Army was just here at Ft. Lewis recently for their annual training. They did nothing to restore my civil rights or end this police state thing. What of their morality? Their country should be so ashamed that they had troops here and yet did nothing to restore my civil rights or end this dreadful police state! But they sure had a good time though!!!!! The Scots and Ghurkas too!!!!

weldordave
April 26th, 2002, 06:03 AM
ungua, "Brave New World" is one of my favorites! Huxley made two classes of people. Those that had and those that had not. When the had-nots got out of hand they were drugged to make them complacent slaves to keep the society running. Genetic predisposed births, predetermined occupations, status, etc. My opinion is that as time goes on, more people see this as acceptable and the world may get there some day. Sheep, they are! Afraid to take chances and make decisions. Let life be just that - LIFE. Full of uncertainties at every turn. Gee, I hope I'm not confusing this with "1984" or "Animal Farm". It's been decades since school! Good luck! (Now I'll have to reread them all!)

ungua
April 27th, 2002, 09:54 AM
yeah, you're right, that's the book. i liked it very much, too, but imho it's still evil to »bottle« babies and create a stupid kind of people for »not so nice work«. although they'd be happy with what they're doing and other (»normal«) people wouldn't be it's still something that should definitely be avoided.

about this »police state thing«®: already in the seventies you had a lot of police men that killed people (most of all afro-american people) and were NOT judged at all. there were also cases where people were treated until they died or they were tortured to gain some answer from them. in 1970 people made some kind of »test«. rich people were invitet to listen to a report on segregation in the police men's heads and afterwards they drove along a road for just some kilometres - in a white cadillac. nothing happened as it was expect that nothing happens. in the second turn they drove the same street but with two black people sitting in the front - and they were stopped by the police for 14 (!) times, just along a few kilometres. how's that possible!? in europe you're supposed not even to find one police man standing around or even a group of police men checking cars while driving 4,ooo kilometres (as i did a lot - from my place in germany down to spain and portugal several times, also france, italy, czech republic, hungary ETC.)...
health insurance: do you know the case of john von der sande? he moved to the us from holland and lived a prosperous life, with a good job, a house and stuff like that. thirteen years later he became ill and had to be connected to a kidney machine twice a week. his health insurance held for just some months and then it »ran out« (how's that possible!?). because the use of the machine costs several thousand dollars a year and there was no institutional help his family had to move back to the netherlands although they loved the usa - being back in europe the machine was payed by the government. and i think that's also what you pay taxes for, isn't it? (in the year 2ooo the usa had some kind of $ 15o billions left when the year was over, right? where did they put that money?)

regards,
ungua

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aclu14
April 27th, 2002, 06:54 PM
Area 51 research and other things civilians aren't supposed to know about

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Stop monkeying around George Dubya! (http://pics.steakandcheese.com/ookook.jpg)

Join the Oppositionist Party! (http://www.geocities.com/lucifer_is_hungry/opinionated_online)

April 27th, 2002, 11:19 PM
UNGUA,

Don't confuse WELD with fact - his brain will shortout !

Lis
April 29th, 2002, 03:50 AM
Re: Brave New World....I agree that its rediculous that anyone should be in complete control over anyone else but....

what is you ultimate goal in life? I suspect most people would say some degree of consistant happiness (it is mine at least). In Brave New World that is exactly what they were given...sublime happiness all the time...I fail to see how it is such a terrible thing....making decisions and taking chances are all part of the process of self-enhancement...if they're not necessary, why bother? Of course it is completely idealistic and in my opinion never going to work quite that way....but still, the place sounded good to me, for the most part.

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Despite the cost of living, notice how it remains popular?

ungua
April 29th, 2002, 05:18 AM
@aclu, do you really believe in this are51 thing? wouldn't it be easier for the government to just claim »hey, we got exactly enough money to survive«!?
@yukon, weld may be of a different opinion than ours but read this thread and you'll get to know that he knows a lot. just one thing really annoys me: he did not yet comment the »jihad schoolbook scandal«, although i asked him about a thousand times (okay, that's exaggerated)... come on, dave!
@lis, i think »consistant happiness« needs to be defined. what the people in »brave new world« made happy was all material, drugs, sex and spending money - all due to the way how they were »programmed« (remember the flower-thing?). i think you can gain this kind of happiness by being loved by others, by helping them and by enjoying yourself from time to time without being interrupted by anything (because time is always an important factor). you also are not supposed to be happy if a guy like the protagonist bernard is just running around and seeing how bad the world actually is. they also don't have any kind of admirable culture (see the shakespeare-motive).
unfortunately i just read the book for fun and didn't read any interpretations. i would so now, but tomorrow i will have my english-exams and i have other things to learn... :-(
btw, i hope a world like this won't happen but did you ever think of travelling already being a kind of world religion? travelling is stress and if you go to beaches really annoying (imho) but it is a general feeling that travelling is good, you can also find the »paradise-motive«, watching any kind of catalogue. there are a lot of things which seem to be controlled by »somewhere outside« but actually i really have to go and learn... ;-)
(i just need to mention that i adore travelling - with my 19 years i have been to almost every country in europe and i'm working in norway; as a german)

regards,
ungua

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