Is Iraq's Saddam a tyranny?

[MacReady]

maybe more from America point of view, but I notice people in Iraq love Saddam. US government want to liberal Iraq people from his tyranny rule and thinking about Iraq as their next target on war against terrorism. I watch tv about Saddam, he take stroll around town in Bagdad and he doesnt have much security to protect him. It seems that he not worry about his people would want to kill him. But in America, whoa I see bunch of security protecting President Bush. Even some Americans would kill him as there were many threats on him plus America has history of presidents got shot or assassian plots. Also one time, I went to downtown at sametime when president came for visit, I was going to a mall where I used to work, I saw whole bunch of protestors with signs hating president and some people threw eggs etc sometimes riots happened. But Saddam just walk outside with his famous smile waving and enter the crowd shaking his people hands. Someday I would like to visit Iraq to get idea of their culture, their people, and to see if they are really under tyranny. It doesnt make any sense, but I think America doesnt like Saddam and just want to fight him. I know Saddam had done horrible things in past on kurds people but not to Iraq cizitens. Also he took over Kuwait cuz Kuwait used to be under Iraq but later divided then Iraq want it back but US wont allow it cuz of oil of course. So I want to know what your opinions or what you know, thanks.

[ogb]

Of course the people in Iraq love Saddam, just as many people over there love bin Laden. The people there are kept very dumb by telling them the importance of their religion - and the fundamentalist religious leaders tell them that the big satan is the USA. As long as the people don't have other sources for education, this won't be changed (whereas education also doesn't prevent from fundamentalism). The pictures you see are controlled by the state Iraq, this is all propaganda - they don't have 30 or more channels like you, but just one controlled state TV. Assume that they don't show something negative on Saddam.
Concerning the security: that's the price of democracy. As not all people are controlled or kept dumb, they are free to make their own thoughts and decisions. For lots of people this seems to be too much freedom, so that politicians and other celebrities need protection. That's sad, but this can't be changed anymore. It's not a problem just of President Bush. When Saddam goes on the street, you can be sure that nobody opposing him will be near. The term "fair trial" will probably changed by "immediate execution" then.

[Idnew]

ogb very well said. Sad**** can do that because your right, if anybody was to say or do anything they'd be shot right there on the spot. So don't think he hasn't got protection, you can bet he does and what you see on TV isn't always what you think your seeing.

[~wildangel~]

hopefully will be changed to immediate execution...

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[Phreakmeister]

OGB and Idnew are right. The people in Iraq love Saddam because they are forced to love Saddam. All day long, state television feeds them "how great Saddam is".

This is how oppressing Iraq is:
Once, a little boy had a fight with a boy in his class. The other boy was called Saddam. So the boy wrote on the blackboard: "Saddam is an !%!%!%!%!%!%!%". He was never heard or seen since...............

[TV_Guy]

On the flipside:

I think the people genuinely like him.

If someone tried to attack George Bush he/she would be "immediately executed" as well.

Tyranny perhaps but why does America hate him so much? There are plenty of warlords/barons/kings about, but no'one could really care less.

It's almost as if the whole of America views Iraq as the "Big Satan", Americans are constantly told by western media that Sadam is evil.

[Phreakmeister]

No, they don't like him. Not sincerely, that is. They have lost all feelings. They don't know anything but this.
Saddam is in power for over a generation now. One generation was taught not to think. This is a sheer disaster.

And yes, people trying to kill Bush would immediately be executed as well. (Although the plane that hit the Pentagon on September 11th was at first intended to hit the White House)

Yes, America sees Saddam as the Big Satan. Well, one reason for that, is because he is the Big Satan. I mean, you wouldn't call someone who uses nerve gases against his own people Jesus, would you?

There probably are people in Iraq who genuinely like Saddam. Sure. But the vast majority of the people don't feel anything for him, since they have been taught not to think. Those who did think were killed.

[thud]

I think there is probably a degree of nationalism in Iraq in response to America's stand against the country, but I wouldn't say that Saddam is liked/disliked - who knows? It's a toss-up who to resent, America for the sanctions and famine, or Saddam for the sanctions and famine. One thing is sure, Saddam is certainly no angel. His son is also genuinely feared - if the opposing soccer team win against his team, they're all tortured. That seems like tyranny, but it might not be true. Still...

[Phreakmeister]

Sure, there is a degree of nationalism in Iraq, just like there is in almost any other country in the world.

Saddam's son Uday, who is his successor, is even worse than Saddam. Let's just hope, that if Saddam dies (which according to the reports won't take all that long anymore), he will be succeeded by Tariq Aziz, and not his son, Uday Hussein.

[Phreakmeister]

MacReady:
You know why if Saddam goes outside, thousands of people are cheering and smiling and waving? A lot of people are from the secret service. And just look beyond the cameras. There are a lot of people with machine guns there. And what would you do, with a gun pointed at you?

So Saddam has done nothing against his people?
So you call using nerve gases nothing? You call the murder and torture nothing? You call the murder of the husbands of two of his daughters nothing? Then what would you call oppression?????????????????????????

No. Kuwait was never part of Iraq. It only became part of Iraq during the Gulf War, and then the allied forces immediately liberated it. Sure, their main motive to intervene may have been oil, but that doesn't make the invasion any more legitimate.

[This message has been edited by Phreakmeister (edited January 17, 2002).]

[MacReady]

True, but like terrorists dont care if they die after complete the mission. Since they believe they go heaven if they do this. I could believe that Iraq ppl are being oppression and brainwash by Saddam. About nerve gases, Saddam use that on Kurds which were normads traveling around in mideast for many generations. They are not Iraq's people. They just simple past through Iraq country and Saddam thought no one would care and wanted to test his new chemical weapons on Kurds in 1990's. Yes he is cold heard !%!%!%!%!%!%!%. I was trying to understand why some American tourists went in Iraq that Iraq allow tourists go there when Taliban wont allow cameras or American tourists go there without approval of Talibans. I dont know much if American preach Iraq people about religious or politics that they could get or did got in trouble for that.

[Phreakmeister]

Wrong. Just like other people, Kurds are Iraqi citizens.
The Kurdish culture consists of a lot of peoples. Their area is commonly called Kurdistan. The Kurds, or the Kurdish peoples, live in a large area, in Syria, Iraq, Iran, Turkey and the former Soviet Union.
They are just as indigenous as other Iraqi's. And they're just as much Iraqi as other Iraqi's. Ethnically speaking the Kurds are a little different group, but just like Iraqi's, they got the Iraqi citizenship.
The difference between Iraqi's and Kurds is like the difference between Sioux and Navaho. Different groups, different tribes, but ethnically related, and living in the same area.

[This message has been edited by Phreakmeister (edited January 19, 2002).]

[Sephirstein]

I think the USA should do what they did in Japan after WW2...Occupy the country and teach the people the value of a liberal democratic republic.

[ogb]

That's the way it should be done, but in Iraq you got the problem that even if you crash their government, almost all their neighbour states are still continuing like they are doing now. The hatred on the US would even increase - not in Iraq itself, I am sure that the population would see it as big relieve - but the other governments would have it easy to continue the fairy tale of the Islam hating western civilisation.

[Phreakmeister]

It would be a huge disaster to immediately overthrow Saddam.
It would be too fast a change.

The same went wrong in the Soviet-Union. If Gorbachev had stayed on longer, the free-market economy could have been introduced without problems. Freedom of speech could have been introduced without problems.

We mustn't make that mistake again in Iraq. Change has to come, that's undoubtedly true, but not right away from one pole to the other.

The ideal solution IMO would be, to let Tareq Aziz take over from Saddam, so that the people still have some 'linkeage', as far as the government is still concerned. The new government would have to introduce "lessons" in expressing opinions and stuff like that.

Free market mustn't be introduced immediately. If from one day to the other, they get filthy wealthy, they will lose the drive to work. That's just human. They have to get used to having more money to spend, they have to get used to things like taking money to the bank and stuff.

Iraq needs change, but it is in the interest of the people not to let the change be too rapidly and too complex. We have seen the consequences of it in Eastern Europe and the former Soviet-Union.



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Do you believe in death after life?

[MacReady]

Someone said Iraq would be next for USA to go war against to overthrow Saddam. If that happen, what about Iran ally with Iraq, and other middle east countries could join together to combine force against USA, that would means USA would be having war with couple of countries as USA cant complete mission on one country at a time. I dont know if or when USA will going attack Iraq, what do you think?

Well if we do attack them (not saying I think we will or think we should), I do believe the US could decimate them just as they did in the Gulf War of 1991. (Irag lost 100,000+ troops compared to the US' loss of some 250 or so troops).

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[Enforcer]

Didn't read entire topic, so it may already have been said, but of course when you have something that is or resembles a dictatorship, generally its just like if you don't like the dictator you DIE! http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/eek.gif

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[Enforcer]

Oh yeah just saw already said
Once again Phreak and agb and Id , you were way ahead of me!

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Phoenixes RULE!
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[Phreakmeister]

Originally posted by Jeff:
Well if we do attack them (not saying I think we will or think we should), I do believe the US could decimate them just as they did in the Gulf War of 1991. (Irag lost 100,000+ troops compared to the US' loss of some 250 or so troops).

Perhaps, probably even, but do you think the US would stand a chance against an alliance of Arab forces? (not saying they do and not saying they don't, just asking)

Oh, and there's one difference between 1991 and now: Saddam has nuclear arms now.

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Do you believe in death after life?

[weldordave]

Phreak, think about it. An alliance of Arab forces. An ALLIANCE of Arab forces? An alliance of ARAB forces? An alliance of Arab FORCES? And if Iraq does have nuclear capabilities, are their forces trained AND equipped to operate in nuclear enviroment? Are their nukes "local" (they suffer as much as us) or do they have transcontinental capabilities (they inflict damage far away)? Guess who will be the last man standing. Hint: He'll have the stars and stripes on his right sleeve. Along with our allies who are VERY proficient at the art of war. Even in NBC (Nuclear, Biological, and Chemical) enviroments.

[Phreakmeister]

Back in 1991 Saddam was already able to reach Tel Aviv, Israel. Who says that now he wouldn't be able to reach Europe, or even the US? Remember: the Soviets were already able to make suitcase nukes. Bin Laden has them now. Who says Saddam doesn't have them either?

And yes, an alliance of Arab forces. Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Oman, Yemen, Lebanon perhaps even, Egypt, Libya, Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco, etc.

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Do you believe in death after life?

[weldordave]

Well Phreak, I don't know. You use the word alliance loosely. All those countries would like to slit the others throat. Maybe Egypt and Syria. Even OPEC dirty deals each other.

I don't have any idea where you got your predictions here.
israel had successfully survived 3 major wars against united arab countries (Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, Iraq) in 1947, 1967, 1973. if israel can do it, the US sure can.
iraq doesn't have nuclear arms (thanks to operation "tamuz") but they do have other NCB arms (http://fas.org/nuke/guide/iraq/index.html)

[Phreakmeister]

Originally posted by lior:
iraq doesn't have nuclear arms (thanks to operation "tamuz") but they do have other NCB arms (http://fas.org/nuke/guide/iraq/index.html)

Partially true. Iraq doesn't have bombs like the ones dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Iraq does have, however, the bombs that were once possessed by the Soviet-Union. They have already tested several of them in the desert.

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Do you believe in death after life?

[This message has been edited by Phreakmeister (edited March 02, 2002).]

[Phreakmeister]

Originally posted by weldordave:
Well Phreak, I don't know. You use the word alliance loosely.

Well, I didn't mean alliance like NATO is an alliance. I mean alliance like the allied forces in WW2. They formed more or less an alliance against Nazi-Germany. I was talking about an alliance like that.

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Do you believe in death after life?

Of course he is!

[Phreakmeister]

[This message has been edited by Phreakmeister (edited April 05, 2002).]

[MacReady]

I dont get it. If Bush want go after Saddam cuz he killed his own people, so does USA. Remember at Kent college during protesting against Vietnam war, US order national guards to fire and kill US citizens. If some of US citizens have the power to change government system, US politicans will kill them even thru. Why pointing at Iraq, what about USA? www.cnn.com/2002/US/04/06/bush.iraq/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/04/06/bush.iraq/index.html)

[paulgro]

There wasn't an order to shoot at Kent State. One of the Guardsman got scared and shot. 4 students were killed as a result of it...

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[aclu14]

Lousy trigger finger.
There's a lot of trigger fingers these days.

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i believe in life after death.

Bush and Saddam are only human and no human can avoid of making mistake. a lot of propagandas have brainwashed our minds and remember who rules the propagandas but usa itself. And i hope we are so smart that we won't just believe what they write. I remember what one of politic teacher in one of famous uni in usa said that it's a fact that the world can't deny that usa had bombed afghanistan and killed civillians but it is still unproven that binladen stands behind what happened to wtc. so??
very easy for propagandas to turn the reality into what the writer want, but beside human can't avoid of making mistake they also have brain to think. I respect Saddam at least he is one of very brave men who won't obey what Bush said when there are so many leaders are 'afraid' to the 'mr president' at least he has principe on his own. We all know that Bush is only human, he has emotion, he has desire and so all of us

i believe in life after death.

Bush and Saddam are only human and no human can avoid of making mistake. a lot of propagandas have brainwashed our minds and remember who rules the propagandas but usa itself. And i hope we are so smart that we won't just believe what they write. I remember what one of politic teacher in one of famous uni in usa said that it's a fact that the world can't deny that usa had bombed afghanistan and killed civillians but it is still unproven that binladen stands behind what happened to wtc. so??
very easy for propagandas to turn the reality into what the writer want, but beside human can't avoid of making mistake they also have brain to think. I respect Saddam at least he is one of very brave men who won't obey what Bush said when there are so many leaders are 'afraid' to the 'mr president' at least he has principe on his own. We all know that Bush is only human, he has emotion, he has desire and so all of us

i believe in life after death.

Bush and Saddam are only human and no human can avoid of making mistake. a lot of propagandas have brainwashed our minds and remember who rules the propagandas but usa itself. And i hope we are so smart that we won't just believe what they write. I remember what one of politic teacher in one of famous uni in usa said that it's a fact that the world can't deny that usa had bombed afghanistan and killed civillians but it is still unproven that binladen stands behind what happened to wtc. so??
very easy for propagandas to turn the reality into what the writer want, but beside human can't avoid of making mistake they also have brain to think. I respect Saddam at least he is one of very brave men who won't obey what Bush said when there are so many leaders are 'afraid' to the 'mr president' at least he has principe on his own. We all know that Bush is only human, he has emotion, he has desire and so all of us

i believe in life after death.

Bush and Saddam are only human and no human can avoid of making mistake. a lot of propagandas have brainwashed our minds and remember who rules the propagandas but usa itself. And i hope we are so smart that we won't just believe what they write. I remember what one of politic teacher in one of famous uni in usa said that it's a fact that the world can't deny that usa had bombed afghanistan and killed civillians but it is still unproven that binladen stands behind what happened to wtc. so??
very easy for propagandas to turn the reality into what the writer want, but beside human can't avoid of making mistake they also have brain to think. I respect Saddam at least he is one of very brave men who won't obey what Bush said when there are so many leaders are 'afraid' to the 'mr president' at least he has principe on his own. We all know that Bush is only human, he has emotion, he has desire and so all of us

Ummm why Usa wants to attack Iraq anyway?? is it because Saddam doesn't want to obey usa? What the advantage of this all if it is just for arrogancy? or usa wants to show the world that they love to attack??? Even none of the civilliance hate their presiden why usa so annoying in this matter? i hate usa when they attack ppl or being so arrogant.

[MacReady]

Excatly, it ironic when Iraq wont let UN enter, so Bush want to use it as excuse to bomb Iraqi, but when Isreali wont let UN enter, USA give Isreali more money and provide more weapons and nuclears. So in sense, Bush want Iraq to become USA's puppet. Saddam won election as prime minster in 1995 after Gulf war, and people of Iraq wanted and still do want Saddam to stay in power, but USA politicans struggled to claim Saddam as USA's puppet, so they want Saddam gone. Read more at www.whatreallyhappened.com (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com)
Saddam is not ideal leader cuz he did bad things in past, so does Bush, and other many leaders even English Prime Minster Blair. USA use media manipulation so USA politicans ensure making themselves look better but Saddam to look bad like Isreali look better but Palestinians to look bad. It has to do with double standards. Iraq have alot of oil, so USA is nut about it.