FLAG BURNING

[cleoeo]

In my hometown we have a custom of burning the American Flag as a political statement at a huge rally every year. Half the town turns out, kids in tow, to watch the local volunteer Fire Department ignite a giant Star Spangled Banner paid for by an exclusive members-only branch of a nationwide organization. Local Police are on hand to ensure no one disrupts the pagent. We've never had a complaint and the more smoke and fire Old Glory makes the happier we are. I've heard this goes on virtually simultaneuosly in small towns all over the US.

Although I agree with the idea of flag burning as a anti-America statement, I think you're greatly damaging the environment by doing so.

[cleoeo]

I was hoping for some feedback from the anti-flag burning groups. Our little local ceremony is held every 4th of July at the Sauk Co Fairgrounds in Baraboo, WI, USA. The flag is a fireworks display paid for by the local Veterans of Foreign Wars post and its flaming glory is accompanied by a rousing rendition of the National Anthem played by the High School band. Everyone romoves their hats and holds their hands over their hearts to demonstrate their patriotism. But it's still flag burning at a public gathering as a political statement - clearly against the numerous anti flag burning bills introduced in the US Congress over the years.

Hey i go in for yankee flag burning and i don't live there.

For Crown and Country
Verminskyi

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Man who stands on toilet high on pot!

To the writer of this letter,
If you feel the need to burn the symbol of this land, I suggest you go to the neverest Veterns Hospital, and get the permission of all the maimed verterns there first. Or go the nearesr VFW(Veterns of Foreign Wars) hall and ask them. I hope your experience will be enlightening. Or if you presist in your endevours, I only hope a like minded patriot like myself meets you. P.S. Hope you insurance is paid up.

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Bill Adams

[DumbLawBreaker]

Hey, Willy, if i wanted to i don't have to go ask anyone to burn a flag. not that im going to, mind you, but its a right just like anything else here in the good ol u s of a!

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And that's another law broken.
SO ARREST ME!

I like that Bill guy.

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Co-Owner
Bueno Technologies

[cleoeo]

I love to bring up the flag burning issue at gatherings here in the heartland because it rouses such emotions. Here are some comments from one recent discussion participant (I'm not making these up):

* Flag burners should get ten years in Federal prison for treason.

* Timothy McVeigh did a patriotic thing by blowing up the Federal building in Oklahoma City and should be given a medal.


* The US Government is run by people too dumb to tie their own shoelaces.

* The US Government is involved in a vast super secret global conspiracy of some kind.


* Mexicans are lazy compared to Americans and that's why Mexico is poor by US standards.

* We must protect our Southern border to keep Mexicans out because they're willing to work 15 hour days for 25 cents an hour and will ruin things for the American worker.


The man making these comments sees no inconsistency in his opinions. His views are fairly common around here. He is an honest, hardworking person and is admirable in many ways.

[Scotslaw]

Go ahead and burn the flag. Good on you. It's your constitutional right to free expression. To all those who feel it's an insult to those who fought and died for America, ask yourself this. Did these people get hurt, maimed and killed for a flag? For a piece of cotton or silk? If that's what they fought and died for, then that's a tragic waste of human life. If they fought for the ideals that the flag stands for, then that's worth something. Burn the flag. It's just a symbol. Destroying the symbol doesn't destroy the very thing it stands for.

If you honestly believe that the ideals of liberty, equality and justice that america is supposed to stand for are imperilled by the mere torching of some cloth, then there can't be that much hope left for those ideals.

[Lis]

I think a flag is meant to represent the ideals of a nation...infact is that not the sole reason for it? Personally, however I tend to appreciate the ppl who fought a war for me rather than the flag of their country.

Infact,here in Australia I'd be happy to burn our flag....apart from making great kindleing, I believe many of us despute what our flag stands for....but that's a whole other story *grinz*

Can someone tell me why the stars and stripes has 13 stripes? Is it for luck?! And by the way, no-one in england cares much about the UnionJack either way. We are just one country in the world (and a small one at that!), maybe you americans should try to cool down this patriotism of yours. http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/wink.gif

[Scotslaw]

Originally posted by Jordan:
[B]Can someone tell me why the stars and stripes has 13 stripes? Is it for luck?!B]

The 13 stripes represent the 13 original colonies that fought and won their independence. There used to be 13 stars too (arranged in a similar way to the stars on the EU flag) but a star was added for each new state that joined the union. The last change was in 1948 I think (can any americans tell me if that's right?) when they went from 48 to 50 stars once Hawaii and Alaska joined.

Originally posted by Bill Adams:
To the writer of this letter,
If you feel the need to burn the symbol of this land, I suggest you go to the neverest Veterns Hospital, and get the permission of all the maimed verterns there first. Or go the nearesr VFW(Veterns of Foreign Wars) hall and ask them. I hope your experience will be enlightening. Or if you presist in your endevours, I only hope a like minded patriot like myself meets you. P.S. Hope you insurance is paid up.



Oh yes, threats of violence. What a great thing for a country to be built on.

"I pledge a grievance to the flag,
and to the Republicans whom I can't stand,
one nation under smog indispicable,
with liberty for just us, not all"

Originally posted by Scotslaw:
Go ahead and burn the flag. Good on you. It's your constitutional right to free expression. To all those who feel it's an insult to those who fought and died for America, ask yourself this. Did these people get hurt, maimed and killed for a flag? For a piece of cotton or silk? If that's what they fought and died for, then that's a tragic waste of human life. If they fought for the ideals that the flag stands for, then that's worth something. Burn the flag. It's just a symbol. Destroying the symbol doesn't destroy the very thing it stands for.

If you honestly believe that the ideals of liberty, equality and justice that america is supposed to stand for are imperilled by the mere torching of some cloth, then there can't be that much hope left for those ideals.

Ideals and actualities are very different things.

I believe that last change was made in 1953, but not quite sure. It sounds right though.

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Co-Owner
Bueno Technologies

The last state was added in 1959! Shame on any Americans who didn't know that. Your trivia question for the day ... was it Alaska or Hawaii?

[cleoeo]

Hawaii.

Now back to flag burning as an act of political symbolism (it's rarely done as a means of keeping warm).

Anti-Government protesters burn the U.S.flag as an act of defiance against a system they perceive as oppresive and unjust. To them the flag symbolizes this system.

Super patriots revere the flag as a symbol of a system guaranteeing liberty and justice for all.

Same symbol. Opposite meanings. The more hue and cry the super patriots raise to outlaw flag burning, the more effective the act becomes as a means of expressing dissatisfaction.

Final analysis: The anti-government protesters should support laws against flag burning since such laws would give them an excellent way to grab headlines for their cause. The super patriots should not support such laws because if it's no big deal to burn the flag, then why bother?

Oi. Actually, I don't know why I'm bothering, but I just thought you might like to know that there was a point in time (six months, actually, so would that make it a line segment in time?) where flags with only 49 stars were made. These are very rare, having come just after Alaska was made a state (not purchased, mind you) and right before Hawaii was made a state.
And I know no one really cares, but I just thought it might be nice to impart the knowledge gained from my Sophomore history teacher.

As for an opinion on flag burning, I believe that it, too, stands for something. If the intent behind it isn't simply to be onery and disreputable, but to show that the US is more than simply a flag, I'm all for it. Save for the fact that it's illegal. (?)
Though, don't you <i>have<i> to do it if it's touched the ground? Ai. Too many conflicting laws designed by too many lawyers. They're all so Specific!

Danni

I served in the United States Army. I served proudly, and would gladly go to war even now to protect the freedoms we enjoy as American citizens.
If we are to have a symbol which represents our country, then it must not only stand for our nation. It must also stand for the right of every one of it's citizens to burn that flag in protest. That freedom is one of the most important we have and should be celebrated along with the rest.

I thought that flag burning was properly respectful under some conditions. I remember seeing American Legion members back in the 60s burning flags. It was long ago, but I think my father, a WWII vet, officiated.

The circumstance was disposal of badly damaged flags. Contact with the ground (burial) was out, and heaving them in the dumpster lacked dignity. Think of it as cremation - flag-burning, without the flaming.

Is there any reason to qualify any generalizations about flag-burning?

[Idnew]

http://www.zing.com/picture/p6263e2bdd23c00a9fa7781e2e6a9b0a1/ff982e88.gif Bill, Dash, bday, tia & Lurker Did I miss anybody? Glad to see so many new members.

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Don't Trust Attorneys, Believe Me I Know

[This message has been edited by Idnew (edited October 24, 2000).]

[paulgro]

I'm not a patriot, far from it, but I do respect the flag and everything it stands for. Is it that much to ask? There is a list of rules that you may or may not agree with on how to handle the flag. Many of these rules you probably don't know or care about,but they're there just the same. It's the only flag that dips to no other nation, it never touches the ground under any circumstances, it's only destroyed when in a battered condition and that's by burning. All of you say you have the right to burn or whatever else you want to do with it, and you do, but that flag stands for those rights! Think about that next time you want to torch one!

Originally posted by paulgro:
... There is a list of rules that you may or may not agree with on how to handle the flag.

Are those rules actual laws, or are they unwritten? If they're acts of legislature, I would like very much to see specific references.

If they're unwritten rules, like holding the door for someone, or letting the parent with small children ahead of you in the restroon line, then they're courtesies.

Many of these rules you probably don't know or care about,but they're there just the same.

Ahh, that sounds like courtesies - things that people ought do to show respect for others. I agree, courtesies of every species are fast becoming extinct, incouding flag rules. Rules about proper use of the American flag are good ones. Rules about giving one's seat on the bus to a less able-bodied rider are other good ones. Rules about who gets cut off at the traffic circle are other good ones. I have nothhing against flags, but they aren't very high on my list of priorities.

Think about that next time you want to torch one!

First, I'd like to see consideration given to the flesh-and-blood people I see every day. Once that's done, I'd OK with more elaborate observations about flags, rights, meanings, and political intangibles. Let's see more people DO what it means, then we'll have reason to be proud of what it means.

[paulgro]

Tell me, what more can we do for these people you see every day? Should we give them everything free? No, it can't be that! We already do that! Give them homes? We do that if they want to work! Maybe you see things a little different then I do. So tell me what you see every day.

[oscar101]

I used to be staunchly against flag burning, but now I don't care. Go ahead and burn the U.S. flag. What matters is what this country stands for, not some piece of cloth. BTW, most U.S. flags are made in... CHINA! That's real patriotic. http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

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Oh my god, they killed Kenny!
You !%!%!%!%!%!%!%!

I guess it could be fun, as you get to wind up twatriots.

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We're the Sweeny, son and we haven't had any dinner. You kept us waiting. So unless you want a kicking you'll tell us where those photographs are.

Its not quite the same as flag burning, but here in England its illegal to ruin coins or banknotes because they have a picture of the Queen on so its classed as treason!

One thing taught during SERE school (Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape) is that the US Flag, in the hands of the enemy, is a rag. Mistreating the Flag is a common tactic used to provoke a prisoner.

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Bill Ellis

[paulgro]

Welcome to the board!
I didn't think I'd see this topic again. It was my first reply on this board!

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The Tired Coffee Man

[Lis]

...and look at ya now, your a bondsman http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif all big and powerful in a pin stripe suit and a machine gun http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/wink.gif

[Serendipity]

Originally posted by foolboy:
Its not quite the same as flag burning, but here in England its illegal to ruin coins or banknotes because they have a picture of the Queen on so its classed as treason!

I've heard it's illegal in the UK even to post a letter with the stamp on upside-down, presumably because the Queen's (Gawd bless 'er. She does a great job) crown would fall off, and we couldn't have that now.

[~wildangel~]

Why burn our flag???
Do you think we care anyways?
Where too busy getting a tan, eating Burger king and living it up http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/wink.gif

[paulgro]

To me burning the flag is the same thing as spitting on the graves of the thousands that died during battle. Most people that don't want the flag burned feel that way. The first thing you'll say is they didn't die for the flag they died for their country. The flag represents our country. I served for four years so you could have the right to burn it anytime you want, but that doesn't mean I have to like it!

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The Tired Coffee Man

[Idnew]

I agree with paulgro. My dad served in WWII and the flag represents(the US) what he and so many others fought and died for. I was given his flag at his funeral. He never asked anything from our government, he fought for our rights and said this country didn't owe him a thing. Sorry but for those of us who had someone in the war I think it means a lot to us and to see it burned is just dis-respectful. JMO

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The only time the world beats a path to your door is when you are in the bathroom

My Home Spot (http://members.tripod.com/~freeatlast_3/Doing_Whatever.htm)

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I don't see the big deal- if burning a piece of cloth is as imaginative as some schmuck can be when he wants attention for being so "cool" and "radical" then so be it. Simple actions for simple minds. I joined the Marine Corps to defend our NATION- not our flag. Yes, I consider the flag a symbol of our country, but what is our country known for? Freedom. Restricting speech (even lackluster, unimaginative speech) would be contradictive.


Go ahead, burn it- if that's the best you can come up with. At least then we know which lower IQ members of society to not even bother trying to reason with. Then you can go back to your comic books and all will be well in the land.

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Vescere bracis meis.

[paulgro]

Welcome to the board!

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"I have not failed. I've just found
10,000 ways that won't work."

Ferrets Place (http://pub20.ezboard.com/bferretscomputerstuff)

[~wildangel~]

http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/s/net7/beerchug.gif

[Code_Monk]

I think Richard said it perfectly.
I myself would never burn the flag, except when it was required as lurker mentioned.

Personally, I do find it disrepectful, but I also see it a a form of expression.
If you ban this form of expesssion because it is offensive to some, what form of expression gets banned next?

And while there are other things that I find distasteful and offensive to myself, I think that people that engage in these activities should be allowed to continue, as long as no harm comes to anyone as the result of these activites.

If you want to burn the flag, go right ahead. You will get my support to do so, but I will not join in with you.

To paraphrase Voltaire, "I may not agree with you, but I will defend to the death your right to do it".

Once you prohibit burning the US flag, you violate the very rights that the flag represents. To outlaw this act of expression goes against everything that our country stands for, the ideals that this country was founded on. To outlaw the burning of our flag demeans the value of the flag itself. Thus making illegal the act of burning the flag does far more damage to the flag than burning

[paulgro]

Welcome to the board! That's why I spent 4 years in the service so you can burn it. Like I said before, that doesn't mean I have to like it!!

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"I have not failed. I've just found
10,000 ways that won't work."

Ferrets Place (http://pub20.ezboard.com/bferretscomputerstuff)

[Serendipity]

Welcome to Dumb Laws, Hyperion!

I don't much mind flag burning, but it seems to me to be awaste of time, and so is criticising flag burning; there are much more pressing practical issues to be dealt with. I'm a Brit, but there are people in countries in the Middle East who, amid much press hysteria, burn the Union Jack alongside the Stars & Stripes at depressingly regular intervals. This kind of thing is a token expression of war, these people dare not or cannot take us on militarily, but still hate us. To burn the flag of one's own nation can be an act, however ironic, of patriotism: I can quite understand a Scottish Nationalist burning the Union Jack, but only because s/he'd like Scotland to be independent of the UK. I still reckon there are far more urgent things to worry about.

I'm a strong patriot of this country and I would never want to leave American Soil to live anywere else; but, burning the American flag is our right, any one who calls them self a patriot and then says we can't express our freedom of speech can't truly call themself American.

[saint]

http://userpages.aug.com/haywire/destroy.html The Flag Code suggests that, "when a flag has served its useful purpose, it should be destroyed, preferably by burning." For individual citizens, this should be done discreetly so the act of destruction is not perceived as a protest or desecration. Many American Legion Posts conduct Disposal of Unserviceable Flag Ceremonies on June 14, Flag Day. This ceremony creates a particularly dignified and solemn occasion for the retirement of unserviceable flags.
and i am still looking up more on this


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The great mass of people...will more easily fall victim to a big lie than to a small one.

[paulgro]

Most American and VFW halls have a box outside where you can deposit your old flags for that purpose.

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"I have not failed. I've just found
10,000 ways that won't work."

Ferrets Place (http://pub20.ezboard.com/bferretscomputerstuff)

[saint]

paulgro
do u know what they do with those flags?
i am guessing they are going to burn the flags because when i went to http://userpages.aug.com/haywire/destroy.html

and every other site they said the same The Flag Code suggests that, "when a flag has served its useful purpose, it should be destroyed, preferably by burning."
but it also so said
For individual citizens, this should be done discreetly so the act of destruction is not perceived as a protest or desecration.
blah blah blah(full comentary scroll up some)
i am not saying go out and do it on a regular baseis
to me it is just some thing to show ppl where i am from/where lies my patriotism:P
but like hiro said (up some) burning the American flag is our right, any one who calls them self a patriot and then says we can't express our freedom of speech can't truly call themself American.

scotlaws if you go to the link u can get the whole idea of who made it and every thing


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The great mass of people...will more easily fall victim to a big lie than to a small one.

[paulgro]

I'm sorry, I thought that was understood. They follow the code and burn it. The burning we dislike is under protest, but everyone has the right to do it if they want.

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"I have not failed. I've just found
10,000 ways that won't work."

Ferrets Place (http://pub20.ezboard.com/bferretscomputerstuff)

[saint]

i was trying to conva that paul http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/confused.gif

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The great mass of people...will more easily fall victim to a big lie than to a small one.

[paulgro]

There's nothing to be confused about. There is a difference between a military ceremony and setting fire to the flag in a gutter. Hope that helps your confusion!

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"I have not failed. I've just found
10,000 ways that won't work."

Ferrets Place (http://pub20.ezboard.com/bferretscomputerstuff)

It's illegal to burn the US flag in protest?
what's the penalty Who's been charged/ convicted?
I feel ignorant not knowing this
Someone tell me more please

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TED

[Idnew]

http://www.zing.com/picture/p8d4aa4a9b150597d5f933e81e68e457f/ff983c52.gif.orig.gif Reality

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(ö¿ö)If life is a waste of time, and time is a waste of life, then let's all get wasted together and have the time of our lives(ô¿ô)

My Home Spot (http://members.tripod.com/~freeatlast_3/Doing_Whatever.htm) My Family (http://members.tripod.com/~freeatlast_3/MyFamily.htm)

[~wildangel~]

Hi Reality, welcome to the board!
I don't know anything about that but Is your real name Ted perchance? http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/wink.gif

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My new and improved yet still improving site! (http://fairmayden1.homestead.com/fairmayden.html)

[paulgro]

Welcome to the board!
No, it's not illegal but frowned upon by most not all.

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"I have not failed. I've just found
10,000 ways that won't work."

Ferrets Place (http://pub20.ezboard.com/bferretscomputerstuff)

[~wildangel~]

ppl that waste there time burning in protest are lame!What the hell do they want to protest anyway?Why would they even take the time out of there life to burn a flag, I mean really if you think about it..there trying so desperatly to get attention or something and the funny part is were too busy munching on dorritos and drinking beer to give a !%!%!%!%!% http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
I never even knew they burned our flag till i read it here!I think it's almost laughable, to burn our flag must mean they hate us and If they hate us thn why do they come over here all the time?(I'm talking about the ppl that burn our flag, BTW)Sorry it just makes me mad when ppl do stupid things in a hatefull way, as burning another countrys flag!

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My Palace! (http://fairmayden1.homestead.com/fairmayden.html)

[Ada_Doom]

Hey, at least your Flag still means something. Thanks the the National Front, the Union Jack is nearly as bad as the Swastika over here.
P.S. Do you still have to swear allegiance to the flag every morning in school, or am I behind the times/talking out of my bum?

[Serendipity]

Hiya Ada, another Brit! There's not many of us here. That's true what you said about the Union Jack and the NF, makes it hard to be patriotic when wannabe fascists usurp the flag.

[~wildangel~]

what does usurp mean?

[paulgro]

Originally posted by Ada_Doom:
Hey, at least your Flag still means something. Thanks the the National Front, the Union Jack is nearly as bad as the Swastika over here.
P.S. Do you still have to swear allegiance to the flag every morning in school, or am I behind the times/talking out of my bum?
It's done in the classroom, but you don't have to participate if you don't want to.

Wild, americans burn it too.



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"I have not failed. I've just found
10,000 ways that won't work."

Ferrets Place (http://pub20.ezboard.com/bferretscomputerstuff)

Felt like giving my input, ya know the knew guys always have the biggest mouths =() hehe, but a flag should not be burned unless it is to either give it a proper going away ceremony or to protest a government action that is designed to take away individual freedom. Burning a national symbol and not getting killed for it is the ultimate sign of the fact that you do have individual freedom, and if you need to burn that symbol to show what you think is happening to your other freedoms(they're all being taken away just like the fire is taking away the flag) then do it. I don't think I'd ever burn the flag, but that is me personally, and when people burn it for dumb reasons that saddens me, my father served in vietnam, and I bet his view is actually close to mine. I learned a great deal of respect for what the flag means through my years in boy scouts(yes I was a scout go ahead and joke =)

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-Taurus a.k.a. Chris Sheridan

The bravest man is the one that doesn't truly know what he's up against.

[saint]

at least u being a boy u where not put in girls scouts ill i could not where a dress
ill or that little teal dress ill
o ya we where trying to dicurig buring flags even thought it is no law against buring it
me and paul are saying the same thing
if u have a flag that is not servieable then it should be burned but discreetly means don't call your whole block to come and watch it burn

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The great mass of people...will more easily fall victim to a big lie than to a small one.

[bi-blonde]

in light of tuesdays terrorist attack on the WTC you should feel lucky to live where you do!

There have been over 200 attempts to make burning the US flag illegal - but every time it has been stopped by the senate, on the grounds that it is unconstitutional and restricts freedom of speech

[This message has been edited by madonnac (edited September 19, 2001).]

[Serendipity]

Welcome to Dumb Laws, madonnac! http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif

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Beware The Wrath of Mod!
Mod Squad Poster (http://www.angelfire.com/hi5/serendipity/MSPoster/ModSquad.html)

Anyone who thinks that burning the flag means nothing, as it is just a piece of cloth, must feel that the USA was not attacked, only a couple of airplanes and buildings. Let the people in New York and Washington DC, and United Airlines and American Airlines go after Bin Laden. It's their problem, not the entire country's, right?
Why the heck do you think they attacked those buildings? Because they were ugly? No, it is because they stand for America's economic strength, democratic freedom, and everything else that you take for granted every day. The flag stands for the same things and it should be treated with respect, which is an ideal lacking today. Do you understand the difference between burning a church and burning an outhouse, since they are both buildings? Funny how all of a sudden everyone in America is talking about displaying a flag instead of burning one. Where are all of you flag burners now? In caves in Afghanistan?
Don't use the legality of burning a flag as a means to determine if it is the right thing to do. There is a difference between politically correct and morally correct. Politicians make the laws, but we choose our own moral characters.

[This message has been edited by Disconnected (edited September 23, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Disconnected (edited September 23, 2001).]

[paulgro]

Please no name calling. You have a right to be mad, but calling people names only brings more name calling...

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"I have not failed. I've just found
10,000 ways that won't work."


Cosmic Coffee Shop (http://pub83.ezboard.com/bcosmiccoffeeshop)
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OK, I took it out, but it sounded better the first time.

[paulgro]

Thanks a lot.....

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"I have not failed. I've just found
10,000 ways that won't work."


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[Serendipity]

Disco, I appreciate what you're saying about the symbolism of the two towers. But is it not the 5000+ people killed that is the real issue? I would sooner see every flag in the world burned and every skyscraper flattened than one innocent person killed. Symbols are important in their way, but not compared to lives.

The U.S. flag stands for everything our veterans fought for. Burning the flag is very disrespectful. If you want to burn the flag at least move out of the U.S. and do it. Just because it is legal to do doesn't mean it's morally right to do. I know this was probably mentioned in other topics, but I didn't read too many of the replies thoroughly.

[paulgro]

Welcome to dumb laws....

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"I have not failed. I've just found
10,000 ways that won't work."


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Here we go. The flag is a pointless waste of time and money. It's a symbol of imperialism and harsh capitalism. Our govrnment has killed or permanently injured over 500,000 children in the middle east over the past decade. Why should they hae to 'pay' for our freedom? Are they a threat?

The flag is symbol of elitism. ANY flag. ANY flag for a country. It's a symbol of uniting people from ONE place. WHY? Why not unite the whole world? Wouldn't that be better? Instead of much of the word hating us? Our government is treating the rest of the world like natural resource whores. THAT is why I burn the flag. THAT is why I'm against the current U.S. actions. Not to rebel for the sake of rebeling to make myself feel good. I rebel for the sake of peace and for the sake of a better world.

X

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X.

[This message has been edited by X (edited December 01, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by X (edited December 01, 2001).]

[Sjax]

I totally agree X.
Flags are symbols of nationalism, and nothing else.
You americans could easily have the same ideals of liberty and possibility and whatever it is you your ideals are without a flag.
When were these ideals ever threatened so you had to go to war in Korea, Vietnam, Iraque, Serbia etc. to defend them??

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Who controls the past controls the future: who controls the present controls the past. (George Orwell)

[Serendipity]

Welcome to Dumb Laws, X http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/smile.gif

Hmmm. I see where you're coming from. BUT. It's off-topic. People who burn flags recognise and acknowledge by that very action what the flag symbolises: if you don't recognise what a flag symbolises then it's just a piece of cloth.

Like you, I'd like to see a united world, but learning to live with our differences is the first step along that path. One of the differences between the US gov't (I'm not a US citizen, I'm a Brit) and the Taliban is that the US gov't guarantees your right to say what you just did. Under the Taliban you would have no such right. The right to freedom of speech is valuable.

War is not a good thing, but it is sometimes inevitable. This current war is absolutely inevitable. In order to progress to good international relations, what is important is stability. If Bush had not taken the steps he has, he would have forfeited the Presidency. I personally think that Bush is not the sharpest tool in the box, but I would prefer to see the US maintain stability than be thrown out of kilter by events.

It is possible that Afghanistan will enjoy good goverment for the first time in centuries as a result of this war - an ironic by-product.

I understand the the Stars and Stripes is a symbol of just the kind of unity that you would like to see: 50 states, some differing wildly from others, united. Isn't that a start? Uniting the whole world won't eliminate élitism. Come to Britain and you will find English people who look down on the Scots and Welsh, southerners who look down on northerners, and so on. I'm sure it's much the same in the US.

Nations and their adminstrations are inherently imperfect. Flags aside, it sounds like you'd like to see the dissolution of national borders. That won't happen unless you come up with a system that works better. The US is working harder than any other nation to establish a homogenous global culture. Not always a good thing, to my mind.

Cah! This post is far too long! http://www.dumblaws.com/ubb/redface.gif

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My grandfather is dying as we speak. Yesterday, he had a massive stroke at the age of 65. As a DIRECT result of war injuries. Where is the US government now? I don't see them anywhere! Where is that unity? While he's suffering on his deathbed, our gov't is sending more soldiers to the same fate. WAR SUCKS. WAR IS A DIRECT RESULT OF NATIONALISTIC PRIDE. You'd think after thousands and thousands of years of death and destruction, we'd learn something.

Can't you see? This is a political war! Bush went to war for ONE reason: to get the American people behind him. Well, I'm an American. I'm not behind him. I'll never stand by imperialism.

I can understand pride. But killing in the name of something...anything...unless it's your family...is foolish.

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X.

[paulgro]

Bush went to war like you said because 5,000 people were killed for no reason at all. Should we forget about them??? Maybe just sit back and let terrorist blowup whatever they want. Is that what you want????

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[Sjax]

Originally posted by paulgro:
Bush went to war like you said because 5,000 people were killed for no reason at all. Should we forget about them??? Maybe just sit back and let terrorist blowup whatever they want. Is that what you want????



IF they should succeed in killing bin Laden (what I seriously doubt) it would just be killing the symptom.
The illness, terrorism and hatred towards the western world would still be there. It cannot be fought with weapons.

[Serendipity]

WAR SUCKS. WAR IS A DIRECT RESULT OF NATIONALISTIC PRIDE. You'd think after thousands and thousands of years of death and destruction, we'd learn something.
Can't you see? This is a political war! Bush went to war for ONE reason: to get the American people behind him. Well, I'm an American. I'm not behind him. I'll never stand by imperialism.

I agree, war sucks. It's not necessarily a direct result of nationalistic pride, there are other kinds of pride that can lead to war. Religious pride, for example.

As for us humans "learning something", I doubt we ever shall learn the lessons you would like us to learn. War is profitable. Some see war as a chance to prove themselves. And as for the current squabble being a political war, which war ever was not a political war? If Bush had not gone to war on this occasion, he would have been replaced by someone else - who would have gone to war.

I am sorry to hear about your grandfather. Let me tell you about some of my experiences. During the war in Bosnia I worked there as a humanitarian aid worker. Part of my training consisted of mine awareness. There are arms manufacturers who make what are called "parrot mines". These are deployed from the air, they have small brightly-coloured plastic parts - just the kind of thing that a curious child would pick up. When the mine explodes, it takes off the child's fingers, so that child would not be able to use a gun in later life. As you say, war sucks. But there are people who deploy these parrot mines. When you see that kind of thing first-hand, can you imagine how angry it makes you? War sucks, but sometimes someone has to do it, not out of choice but out of necessity.

[Idnew]

Very sorry to hear about your g-father. Don't know how war would cause a stroke though. My father fought in WWII gladly and if he was still alive he would have joined this war. WAR SUCKS. You bet it does, but if we hadn't went to this war a lot more of us might be dead than are excluding the anthrax that is now circulating around. Afganistan loves us over there. For once they might see some kind of freedom.

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I'm all for flag burning. NOw to all you hard core "patriots" tell me this, if the flag is/was supposed to represent the country of the free, then why was slave ownership still very much a right at the time of the flags creation. Who was free? What does it really stand for?

[paulgro]

Your a student, read your history and you'll have the answer. To answer this question on a board would only start a flame war. That's not a good thing...

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[Phreakmeister]

Originally posted by Disconnected:
Why the heck do you think they attacked those buildings? Because they were ugly? No, it is because they stand for America's economic strength, democratic freedom, and everything else that you take for granted every day. The flag stands for the same things and it should be treated with respect, which is an ideal lacking today.


As you know, on September 11th, symbols were attacked. How many symbols of freedom were among the targets?? Was Philadelphia (where the Declaration of Independence was written and signed) under attack? Was the Statue of Liberty under attack? No.
How horrible September 11th may have been, it was not an attack on freedom and democracy. The targets were symbols of the American economic (WTC) and military (Pentagon) strength. They were the foundations of American foreign policy. Although the American sense of freedom and democracy may have been damaged, that was not what was under attack. What was under attack, was America's foreign policy.
Before you say anything, try to get your facts straight.

Good point Phreak. I think the media found a little TOO many things the attack was targeted at instead of keeping to the simple truth. Honestly, in many places, the threat of a terrorist attack caused an extreme wave of new security measures. I really doubt terrorists with half a brain would want to blow up a mall in South Dakota when there are plenty of other big skyscrapers around.....

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[Enforcer]

I've only read teh first few posts from this topic but I think I know enough 2 say:
"Let poeple burn as many flags from as many countries as they want, as long as nobody gets physically hurt its OK and the poeple that feel they are done mental hurt (phychich,whatever) should avoid these occasions, and I still think they'd be somewhat overreacting.
(Please no mad replies)

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Would you please step away from the vehicle?

just because you burn the flag doesn't mean that you are a terrorist it just is a sign of showing disrespect towards the government for them showing disrespect for you as an american citizen and to those who are oppressed in the u.s.

[jettmotto]

Originally posted by cleoeo:
I love to bring up the flag burning issue at gatherings here in the heartland because it rouses such emotions. Here are some comments from one recent discussion participant (I'm not making these up):

* Flag burners should get ten years in Federal prison for treason.

* Timothy McVeigh did a patriotic thing by blowing up the Federal building in Oklahoma City and should be given a medal.


* The US Government is run by people too dumb to tie their own shoelaces.

* The US Government is involved in a vast super secret global conspiracy of some kind.


* Mexicans are lazy compared to Americans and that's why Mexico is poor by US standards.

* We must protect our Southern border to keep Mexicans out because they're willing to work 15 hour days for 25 cents an hour and will ruin things for the American worker.


The man making these comments sees no inconsistency in his opinions. His views are fairly common around here. He is an honest, hardworking person and is admirable in many ways.
i outlined the stars and stripes on a flag and my dad kicked my butt....heres an idea, if you want to stir a bunch of emotions ask people what they thing about the word "!%!%!%!%!%!%"

[Enforcer]

About the "!%!%!%!%!%!%"-thing (hey, why isn't that filtered)
I think that if black poeple feel insulted by this word oyu shouldn't say it... If they don't... i don't care...

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[Idnew]

Well if you want that filtered then I guess we should filter honky, cracker, as that is what the blacks call the whites plus a few others

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[This message has been edited by Idnew (edited March 23, 2002).]

[Enforcer]

I can understand cracker, but where does honky come from?

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Phoenixes RULE!
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[Phreakmeister]

Originally posted by Enforcer:
About the "!%!%!%!%!%!%"-thing (hey, why isn't that filtered)
I think that if black poeple feel insulted by this word oyu shouldn't say it... If they don't... i don't care...

Well, which people are using the word '!%!%!%!%!%!%' the most? not white people


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Do you believe in death after life?

[jettmotto]

see there i didn't mean to change the topic, but if you want to stir up emotions...

[kontulib]

Burning Finnish or other countrys flag here in Finland: you will be convicted for disorderly behaviour and fined. But this only if you do it on public.

[Phreakmeister]

A lot of patriots say that the Stars 'n Stripes represent all that is "truly American". That is such a load of crap. Does the mentality of a country change when you change the flag? NO!!! A flag is just a collection of colours, put in a certain order. In the case of the US flag, they just put red, white and blue into the flag, make the red and white into stripes, and put some white stars on the blue area. That's it. It could just as easily have been the flag of Germany, or Greece, or Iraq, or any other country in the world, but then people would have look at it completely in the opposite way all of a sudden. Tell people that you don't like the design of the American flag, and in some cases you gotta run for cover.

What's wrong with burning a flag? You're not burning a country's mentality, you're burning a collection of colours used to represent the country.

[FTale]

In Finland you should burn the flag if it touches the ground. That's the official instruction, or so I've heard.

Makes me wonder, why burn the flag if it has touched the country it represents. As my friend said: It would make much more sense if you had to burn the flag if it touchen the soil of Sweden!

No offense, JStar!

[Freedom]

I am a former Marine and I served for the principle of freedom, not a piece of cloth.

I served to help insure freedom not to rob others of it. So if you want to burn a flag go ahead. I will only be glad to know you have that freedom.

Freedom

Originally posted by Scotslaw
Go ahead and burn the flag. Good on you. It's your constitutional right to free expression. To all those who feel it's an insult to those who fought and died for America, ask yourself this. Did these people get hurt, maimed and killed for a flag? For a piece of cotton or silk? If that's what they fought and died for, then that's a tragic waste of human life. If they fought for the ideals that the flag stands for, then that's worth something. Burn the flag. It's just a symbol. Destroying the symbol doesn't destroy the very thing it stands for.

If you honestly believe that the ideals of liberty, equality and justice that america is supposed to stand for are imperilled by the mere torching of some cloth, then there can't be that much hope left for those ideals.
And I bet this is the same reason that Scotland is its own free country, instead of an English lackey.

I serve in the US military. While I think flag burning is a disgrace to that flag, I think you have the right to do so. I, and many other servicemen, give you that right. But burn that flag in my vicinity, and I have the right to do something about it.

Sure, it's a piece of cloth. But yes, people died for that flag. They died for the ideals that it represents. They died for freedom, so that other men and women could have freedom. Don't disgrace that memory, just to exercise a freedom you take for granted every day.

Personally I think the idea of someone saluting or honoring a flag as it is being burned in protest is a farce, a joke, and it sickens me to my stomach. It's like pissing in holy water that you're about to be baptised in.

[Freedom]

Originally posted by Firefly

And I bet this is the same reason that Scotland is its own free country, instead of an English lackey.

I serve in the US military. While I think flag burning is a disgrace to that flag, I think you have the right to do so. I, and many other servicemen, give you that right. But burn that flag in my vicinity, and I have the right to do something about it.

Sure, it's a piece of cloth. But yes, people died for that flag. They died for the ideals that it represents. They died for freedom, so that other men and women could have freedom. Don't disgrace that memory, just to exercise a freedom you take for granted every day.

Personally I think the idea of someone saluting or honoring a flag as it is being burned in protest is a farce, a joke, and it sickens me to my stomach. It's like pissing in holy water that you're about to be baptised in.


"But burn that flag in my vicinity, and I have the right to do something about it."

What may ask are you prepared to do about?

Beat thier ass? Sure you can speak your mind you and I both served to preserve that right. But a million people dieing for freedom doesn't give you or anyone the right to physically harm someone else. This is completely against what our country was founded on.

"They died for freedom, so that other men and women could have freedom. "

By your statement you would be dishonoring those soldiers by trying to infringe upon the freedoms of others.

When I was in the Marines, there were many flag burning cases going on. Just as well they had the exhibit at the Art Museum in Chicago where you walked across the flag and signed a book or petition. Of course I did not think much of this and it did upset me, but in my own desire to be free, I have getten over it.

You should see the beauty in it. The fact that you can live in a country and speak your mind without getting beaten up, tarred and feathered or hung in the town square, is not someting that should be taken for granted, because it is statements like yours that endanger those freedoms, not protect them.

Who's to say that one day a mob of people don't like what you said. Does that give them the right to say, "say what you want, but say it around us and we are going to do something about it" and then kick your ass?

Maybe it would be because you don't worship thier god or maybe because they think you are gay or maybe because you were black, white or any other color.

We all seek freedom, yet it amazes me how so many of those that seek it, try to deny others of thiers.

Semper Fi

Freedom

So if they somehow figured burning my house down would be a good protest, I should let them do that, as well? Set me on fire, that's a good way of protesting, too- Buddhist monks did it, why not set an American soldier on fire as a symbol of protest. Should I just lie down and let that happen?

It's mighty ironic that you burn a symbol of freedom as a method of exercising freedom. It's mighty hypocritical too- "Gee I hate the government or the US, and all the freedoms that they gave me, so let's just burn this flag, since it's a symbol of the country."

Why, that's a great idea! Let's go bitch-slap a nun because we're protesting the Catholic faith. Let's go burn a rabbi, because Jews crucified Jesus!

But getting back on track- I said that you should feel free to burn the flag, because it's your right. I also never said I'd beat someone's ass. But aiming a fire hose or a fire extinguisher at it, and "accidentally" getting someone who happened to toss the torch or match... it'd be a mighty fine coincidence. And I'd have no regrets about it, either. Myself, and the millions of vets who fought for America, the nation, the people, that flag and all it stands for.

And to the Scot who said the flag doesn't stand for freedom, and people shouldn't die for it... I have but one more thing to say to you.

"That flag still stands for freedom, and they can't take that away."

Recognize that line? Lee Greenwood wrote that in his song "God Bless The USA". So more than one person believes that our flag stands for freedom.

[BeetleJuice]

There is a slight difference in burning a Symbol and burning a Person. One is an act of voilence and is not a part of speech granted in the Constitution.
Burning a house is destruction of personal property, again not a matter of speech but an overt illegal act which is not granted by the Constitution.

You're swallowing gnats and straining at camels with your examples.


EDIT: Spelling

Originally posted by Freedom



"But burn that flag in my vicinity, and I have the right to do something about it."

What may ask are you prepared to do about?

Beat thier ass?



ah, violence. the first resort of the ignorant.

[Freedom]

And to the Scot who said the flag doesn't stand for freedom, and people shouldn't die for it... I have but one more thing to say to you.

"That flag still stands for freedom, and they can't take that away."


Yes the flag does stand for freedom to most of us, but like it or not it doesn't for everyone.


The simple fact that it does stand for freedom for you, is the exact reason why someone has the right to burn it if they feel like doing so.



As for your fire extinguisher, it only takes 3 pounds of pressure to put an eye out. A fire extinguisher greatly excedes that pressure and even if you accidentally hit them, you are the one that used it. So say you accidentally put someines eye out, is that justifiable? Say the person has an allergic reaction to the chemical and suffers from the use, is that justifiable?

One of the things that I feel has ruined this country besides laws, taxes and lawyers is the fact that many people no longer feel they are responsible for thier actions. Of course this is where the lawyers come in. They are the catalyst to this problem, because for profit they will argue just about anything.

Freedom doesn't give anyone the right to physically harm another person or their property. Of course, you too, are free to tell that person you think he is an "*******" or other names if you like, but that's about as far as your rights go.


Freedom

[Dizbuster]

I thought it said FAG BURNING, and tried to avoid this thread,

Oh well, nevermind. :clap :wave :eek: :rolleyes: :wink

[Phreakmeister]

Originally posted by Freedom
it only takes 3 pounds of pressure to put an eye out.

Do I wanna know how you know this? :D

[Freedom]

It was in a safety class.

Topic covered was do not point fire extinguishers at people's faces when using. It was the fluid type though, not sure about the chemical type.

Freedom